The Intentional Leaders Podcast: Helping ambitious leaders gain clarity, communicate with confidence, and lead with intention.
Helping ambitious leaders gain clarity, communicate with confidence, and lead with intention.
Leadership isn’t about titles, authority, or having all the answers—it’s about being intentional.
If you’re ready to move from managing tasks to empowering people, you’re in the right place.
Each week, host Cyndi Wentland, founder of Intentionaleaders, shares actionable tools, real-world stories, and fresh perspectives to help you grow into the confident, respected leader you aspire to be. You’ll learn how to handle tough conversations, inspire trust, build stronger teams, and lead with purpose without burning out in the process.
Whether you’re a first-time manager, seasoned executive, or small business owner, the Intentional Leaders Podcast will help you develop the mindset and skills to create impact that lasts.
Tune in, grow intentionally, and become the kind of leader your team—and your life—deserve.
The Intentional Leaders Podcast: Helping ambitious leaders gain clarity, communicate with confidence, and lead with intention.
When Expertise Isn’t Enough: The Leadership Skills AI Can’t Replace
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
AI can generate answers instantly, but it cannot replace the part of leadership that actually moves work forward: human judgment, clear priorities, and the ability to stay grounded when certainty disappears. We sit down with Anna Barnhill, founder of Leader Wired and the Leader Wired Institute, to unpack why expertise is becoming a commodity and why many leaders feel a quiet identity threat as the rules that made them successful stop working.
We dig into Anna’s “internal operating system” idea: the beliefs, assumptions, and stress patterns that run in the background and shape what we do when pressure spikes. That’s where the know-do gap shows up. You may know how to communicate well, create psychological safety, and invite innovation, yet default to control, urgency, or being right when the board is watching and the clock is ticking. Anna explains how strategic discomfort is part of adult development, why burnout often forces a reset, and how neuroplasticity makes real rewiring possible.
You’ll also get a simple, practical upgrade you can start today: pick one small behavior and practice it for 30 days. If your team brings ideas and your instinct is to shut them down, take a breath and ask one curious question instead. We close with a powerful anchor for uncertain times: values-aligned leadership, so you can make decisions with a North Star even when the path is unclear.
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Get in touch with Anna:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabarnhillmcc
https://www.annabarnhill.com/
Book a session with Cyndi:
www.intentionaleaders.com
Ambitious leaders know that real leadership goes far beyond titles—it’s about developing the clarity and mindset to guide others with confidence. In this podcast, you’ll explore what today’s leaders truly need, from navigating everyday problem solving to handling tough moments of workplace conflict with steadiness and respect. Episodes dive into setting healthy workplace boundaries, strengthening workplace collaboration, and building the emotional intelligence and emotional agility that make leadership sustainable. Whether you’re managing a growing team or refining your voice as a decision-maker, you’ll find insights that help you cultivate a resilient growth mindset and elevate your impact.
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Questions? Episode Requests? Send us a message!
Ambitious leaders know that real leadership goes far beyond titles—it’s about developing the clarity and mindset to guide others with confidence. In this podcast, you’ll explore what today’s leaders truly need, from navigating everyday problem solving to handling tough moments of workplace conflict with steadiness and respect. Episodes dive into setting healthy workplace boundaries, strengthening workplace collaboration, and building the emotional intelligence and emotional agility that make leadership sustainable. Whether you’re managing a growing team or refining your voice as a decision-maker, you’ll find insights that help you cultivate a resilient growth mindset and elevate your impact.
Welcome And Guest Setup
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Intentional Leaders Podcast, where we provide tips, tools, practices for you to lead with more clarity, focus, confidence, competence, and intention. Today I am thrilled to welcome Anna Barnhill to our podcast. She is the author and founder of Leader Wired and the Leader Wired Institute. And she's going to share three very important insights with you today. One is understand why expertise alone isn't enough to make a leader valuable in the era of artificial intelligence. Ooh, also recognizing some of the hidden beliefs and stress patterns that create a gap between what we know and what we actually do. And third, she's going to also offer a small behavioral shift that you can make to update your internal operating system and strengthen your leadership. Anna Barnhill has a wealth of experience. She is, as I mentioned, the founder of LeaderWired, also the founder and CEO of Advantage Edge Leadership. She's a learning facilitator at MIT Professional Education and an official member of the Forbes Coaches Council. So I am thrilled to welcome Anna Barnhill to our podcast this morning. Good morning, Anna.
SPEAKER_00Good morning, Cindy. So good to be with you today.
The Internal Operating System Metaphor
SPEAKER_01So you one of the things that jumped out to me right away is you talked about how we transform as humans and that change and transformation is important in the context of all the things that are going on in the world. But you use the term um internal operating system and that sometimes we may need to update that for ourselves. What are some signs that you think a leader could look at to say, am I operating from beliefs or assumptions that no longer serve me? So what does that all mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, well, first, lad dive in a little bit into what do I actually mean by the operating system? And the way I like to think about it, think about our phones, our laptops, our computers, right? They all have operating systems. And from time to time, especially on your phone, there will be a pop-up and it will say, it's time to update the software, right? And it updates it overnight. And when I start thinking about us as human beings and how we change and how we create sustainable change, something is missing. When was the last time we updated our internal architecture? Meaning, how do we think what we believe to be true or not true? Assumptions of what success actually looks like? When was the last time we actually changed anything about what we believe? And that's where I really start looking at us and behavioral change as okay, if we have all this internal architecture, but it's invisible, how can I, through my work, help leaders to make it visible so now they can identify what is actually lagging in their toolkit and what needs to be rewired and upgraded? And that leads me to the question, right? How can we even know if something is running and it's out of date?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
Spotting Outdated Beliefs And Assumptions
SPEAKER_00So the first question I would ask exactly, I would ask, well, when was the last time you actually changed opinion on something? Because if in the past 10 years you hear a lot of news, a lot of different information, there's so much coming our way. If there was nothing at all, absolutely nothing, that made you think differently or challenge, wow, what if this is true? What if something that I used to believe is no longer true and relevant for the current reality?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, that's the foundation. That is a powerful statement when you think about even a 10-year time frame, a five-year time frame, whatever that time frame is. And I think you you and I talked about books, didn't you? Like, when is the last time you read a book that you actually changed because the book, the know-and-do gap? Um and can you explain that to people? What's the the know and do? Because I think that really gets at are you changing, are you shifting, are you doing the things that you think you are or not?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that one is basically came from two things. First, my work with my clients and my observation, how you can be extremely intelligent, you can know what to do, you can literally teach mastery classes and workshops on effective communication and psychological safety. But when it comes time to real work, pressure, deadlines, demanding board, what do you actually do under pressure, not what you know what to do? And I start noticing there is a gap. They can tell me what they need to do, but under pressure, they're not able to execute on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the second piece was uh when I'm teaching, right? And uh once again, I'm in adult learning. So clients, students that come to me, they're already successful, they already have a career. Um, and um, I'm teaching leadership and innovation. So here I have a group of brilliant people, oftentimes they have an engineering mindset, very analytical. The first question that they ask me, what other program do you recommend I take? So as soon as they sign up for program, they already check the box. What's next? And there's this hunger for knowledge accumulation because we as a society operate under a faulty assumption that knowledge equals effectiveness. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Oh my God, that's brilliant. And it's true. So in the work that you've done, the work that I've
The Know And Do Gap Under Pressure
SPEAKER_01done. And when we think of that knowledge base, too. And um, I heard someone talk at a conference recently and they said with AI, uh, and I want to get to that for you too, but with AI, it's kind of leveling the playing field around knowledge or expertise because we have easy access to more information, not saying it's all accurate, um, and that gap between what are we actually doing and how are we applying it, and also the interpersonal effectiveness to bring that to life. Um, that's kind of getting at too what needs to change about your operating system interpersonally, not just around knowledge base and expertise.
SPEAKER_00Very, very true. And Cindy, you're touching on something so important, you're touching on mindset shifts that have to happen right now. Because what we will notice, a lot of leaders were guilty of putting our value into what we know, right? Over time, we became an expert in something, that's how we got promoted. So, in a way, a lot of us right now operate under assumption that I became successful because of what I knew of my expertise. Therefore, this is a requirement for me to continue to be successful. Yeah, and with AI, transforming everything, how we work, how we need to think, how we need to make decisions, this rule, this assumption is no longer valid.
SPEAKER_01Yes, which is painful, it's painful for a lot of people because, as you said, if that's part of my identity, part of my credibility, part of my power, and now that's not anymore, what what makes me unique and different and special and powerful? So, when you think about that shift for leaders that you're working with, how do you help them tap into the power beyond the technical expertise when it comes to AI and comes to all of that? What do you see happening?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
AI Makes Expertise Cheap
SPEAKER_00First, I always want to build their awareness because awareness precedes choice. If they're not aware that they're running some type of outdated pattern, they cannot change it. So I would always try to help them identify and ask them, what do you believe makes you successful as a leader? I want to understand where do they place value. And oftentimes they actually place their value into what they know. So now we uncover the trap. Now we have awareness, now we have a choice to do something about it. And what I invite them to do is to start shifting from knowing things to knowing what truly matters. And that's a big shift because right now AI basically makes knowledge cheap. It's free. Yes, but just like you said earlier, not everything it gives you with such a confidence is actually accurate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So knowing what matters, having our human judgment and discernment, that's where our true value comes in in the era of AI. Because you can find all the answers in the world right now. AI can process information so fast, our human brain cannot compete. So if we try to double down on knowledge and get another training and another course, we are losing that race.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So and when you think about that, Anna, because it's so it's such a powerful shift of, and you you mentioned doubling down, which I see a lot of people doing. I'm gonna double down, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take another class, I'm gonna get a certification, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and they're like, wow. Um, and and that is like, okay, you can do that, and it could add to your credentials. Is that really adding to your effectiveness? So as you go through that exploration with leaders that you've worked with, um, how do you help them get through that? There's probably a moment of freakout, like what I've known all my life is no longer true. And now I have to be more thoughtful, as you said, going from awareness to choice and those choices that I'm making about my own humanity. Um, how do you help them get through that freak out period? Because I imagine you have to, like, they're gonna come to you like, what do I do now, Anna? Yeah, and it's very true.
Strategic Discomfort And Identity Threat
SPEAKER_00And honestly, I think first just sitting with them in the discomfort because the urge would be to double down, to start taking action. But that action is not coming from a place of groundedness, it is not coming from a place what do I value as a leader? And it's not coming from a place what legacy do I want to leave behind. It's coming from a place of fear, overwhelm, anxiety. What will happen to me if now my expertise is basically a commodity? Yes. So letting them know that how you feel is expected and it's okay, and we can actually sit in that discomfort. And even in my book, I talk a lot about strategic discomfort. Oh, oh, I love that term because I feel like as a society, we got conditioned to think that life should be easy. There is a pill that you can take, there's three steps, and you're happy, right? And everything is great in life. And it's not true, right? It's like an outdated assumption that I don't know when it was even true. And we operate from that belief. So as soon as we start feeling discomfort and the ground is shifting underneath us, the urge, because we're so fearful and anxious, is to double down on what already is not working.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the go-to slow down, take a pause. It's supposed to feel uncomfortable. And then we can start planning.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And it's it's true. I mean, and and I think many times we don't even know that feeling of fear and discomfort in the way, or it's it's more like stress. I'm stressed. I think stressed is the blanket word for discomfort, like I'm stressed out. And then people don't effectively label it, which you just did. It's fear, it's anxiety, it's overwhelm, it's everything's shifting, and I'm unprepared for it. So it's the uncertainty of the future. And I think people aren't effective at labeling it, so then they can't explore it as deeply. Because who wants to say, hey, Anna, I'm afraid. I'm afraid that all the things I'm thinking about aren't the right way to think about it. Because again, you're working with leaders who are very successful. And to admit that and to be vulnerable in that way has to be hard for people to come to grips with.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Because in a way, it really feels like it attacks their identity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It not only attacks what they know, it actually attacks, well, who am I now? I used to be an expert in X, Y, and Z. Yeah. And I thought that forever, you know, I will carry that torch. And now it's it's different. And the question becomes: can I learn fast enough to catch up with the speed of change? Can I lead effectively through this change if even I'm feeling uncertain about myself right now? A lot. And it takes a lot of courage, it takes a lot of vulnerability to even arrive into I can admit that I don't know what the future holds, and I feel a certain way about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Stress Patterns And The Need To Be Right
SPEAKER_01I was doing a conference a couple of weeks ago, and and the whole topic um is how do leaders let go of the tendency to want to be right, right? They they think like that's my job, gotta be right, gotta know the information, and have to, I'm I've been rewarded for that. So I'm gonna keep doing that. But as you're saying, like the need to be right and my tendency to do that also prevents me from looking at the current reality in an accurate way. And um, and you and I talked about like that pressure, right? The pressure on leaders to make decisions faster, less certainly, less um incomplete information. And how do people lead in that environment? So, what do you see happening there? And what what do you believe leaders need to do? Because they want that certainty and they're not gonna get it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. And I would say it goes back to um really understanding your internal architecture. Like what is actually driving your thinking right now, what is driving your decisions, and what do you actually do under pressure? Not what you believe is the right thing, right? That you know, but what actually is happening in those moments when you feel stressed, when you feel overwhelmed, when you don't have an answer. And you'll start noticing, oh, well, actually, if I'm in the meeting and somebody's asking me a question, my team is watching, the board is watching, I don't have an answer. What do I do in that moment? And you'll start noticing people will have patterns. Some of them will start perform confidence, so they will come up with an answer, even if it's not the right answer, just to project that confidence. For some people, they will push for speed and for urgency. That's how I show my value. We will execute on everything right away. But in a way, it becomes disconnected from what is actually happening in the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00So for them, right, if they realize, oh, I grab for control, I provide answers that are not even true or accurate, or I just say yes to everything. Well, now we uncover the outdated architecture that is causing friction, it's causing stress in this new era, where by the time you wait on certainty, by the time you arrive into certainty, the reality has shifted. So it's like you never can catch up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00I think building awareness is the first step. And once you see how you operate, how you think, you cannot unsee it. Yeah, it just sticks with you.
SPEAKER_01Right. And then then I'm gonna keep thinking about that dissonance of it's not working for me, but I'm still doing it. Yes, and I I need to stop this thing. And that I'm sure that cognitive dissonance for all of us is like, no, I don't want to be that person who's doing those things, but why am I doing them? As you said, you know, why am I making those choices? And our habits are so strongly wired to be able to one explore that and two, change it is uh a big disciplined effort, a structured effort. So absolutely, yeah.
Why Change Fails Without The Human Side
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you started this journey um focused on Six Sigma. I'm I'm going backwards a little bit, but you you kind of started on leading change and thinking about all those things. When did you start this pivot in your career where you started looking at kind of from process to the people orientation? Because now you're so grounded in the people part of it and helping people change and transform. When did that shift happen for you?
SPEAKER_00You know, it actually happened quite early in my career. Um, because when I was working on creating quality management systems, and then of course there's a process of training people and how to use them, and then I go on my next project. So, my role is not only to create the system that works and makes the processes more efficient and people more effective, but also get buy-in from the people that will be using those systems. Yeah, so I start observing an interesting thing. You can have a good technology, a good process, a good system. And in theory, you would think it will work out. It's not possible for it not to work out, yeah. But a lot of initiatives would fail. And I became very interested. What happens as soon as I take myself out of the equation? Yes, change does not necessarily stick. And they need to bring me back. I'm like, so what is happening? What is missing? And then I realized well, when it comes to change management, when it comes to transformation, there are two sides of the same coin. There is a side of technology and processes and systems, and there's a side of human, human who is going to lead the change, and of course, humans who are going to deploy and use that process and that system. And what was interesting, the majority of companies would only focus on that one side of the coin. And they would neglect the human side. But I'm like, uh if human side is where adoption of any technology, any process fails, it creates a lock, then it means it also creates an unlock. It's on the human side.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's where I shift it into uh understanding our human brain, right? If like neuroscience, why we do what we do, how we think, how what we think impacts how we feel, how that feeling then drives our decision making. And um, yeah, I I never look back. That said, it's actually much more interesting.
SPEAKER_01It is, isn't it? Having done a lot of change management in my career too, it's kind of like, oh, that's that's not really fun. As fun, I don't think. But I think and I think what's great about that in the neuroscience and all the I grew up in behaviorism, you know, like way back, you know, decades ago when it was all about behavior, behavior, behavior. And now we have access to so much more of the neuroscience, of the the thinking, the, as you said, the emotional reactions. And there's so much more good research about the effect of all of those things. So not just studying it, but what effect does that have? Um, so as you kind of think about that and and focus on that, it's so great that there's so much more insight these days. There's so much more wisdom about it. So it's not just you, Anna, saying, Hey, company, hey leaders, this is what's happening. You can back it up with so much research and scientific data and uh information that shows what that gap really is. And I think that's a super helpful. Um it's it's super helpful to help people to understand the change that's required. So that's pretty awesome. So you pivoted, never looked back, and um you could have stayed, you know, in that change leadership and just been successful, you know, with career success because no one could really do it well. But instead, you're like, nope, I'm going over here, which I think is is fantastic. So when you think about um uh when we think you we we talked a little bit about AI, we've talked about the the gap between knowing and doing. Um, and I I want to kind of focus on the pressure that leaders feel now to adapt, to reinvent themselves. And you've talked about like we have to update our operating system, but that also means a little bit that there may be a fear that I'm in I have to become someone different. And how do you see and how do you help leaders evolve while they still are remaining in their own identity, but that identity is shifting? How do you help people through that? Because I'm sure that's a complicated process, not just for them, but for you to help guide them along that way. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's such an important question because in every interaction that I have, this question is surfaces. Yeah, because what is happening, um, the foundational layer of our architecture is beliefs, our belief system. And the challenge with beliefs is we don't see them as beliefs, we see them as who we are. Yes, this is how the world is. So it is not something that we can challenge in a way, it just feels real and true. Yeah, and once we start doing that work, what actually help leaders to shift is realizing that some of those beliefs were true in the past, they serve them in the past, but they are no longer true for current reality. And that's what enables the shift. Because if I ask my client, what does it take to be a successful leader? Give me five things, give me ten things, and they list all the things, then I ask them to start discerning what is actually true factually. Yeah, this skill, this belief, it is it is actually true, it is required. And what is something that you acquired at some point in your life through some type of experience, like knowing all the answers, yeah, probably something that got you promoted, right? You were a technical expert, you knew all the answers, they put you in people leadership role. So you encoded, I have to have all the answers in order to succeed and advance.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00But is it really true or is it creating a ceiling? Is it something that actually suffocates your team if you're not allowing your people to think for themselves? So I think that's the main thing, helping them understand that not everything we think, not everything we believe is necessarily true. It maybe used to be true, it served them in the past, but operating under the assumption that in the AI era, when things are moving much faster, increased level of uncertainty, we can operate on the old assumptions of what success looks like. It's a fallacy. And I think just holding that realization in our hat will help us make the shift.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really powerful experience. It's a really powerful process because, as you said, I and I do believe this to be true. I mean, we all go through life like we're seeing life as it is. Everything that we are wired to think about, how we're showing up, how we how we believe our manual for how people should behave and how we should behave is not reality in the sense of how everyone's um operating and what is truly effective and true and all those things. So I think it's a it's such a powerful shift for people to make. But I think you know, all the things that you're talking about need support of someone who can guide them through it. And as you think about, you know, your role in and typically if someone comes to you, is it an organization or is it a leader or is it both? Like how do people get you you to help them through this process typically?
SPEAKER_00It's both. I actually have a lot of leaders right now who start seeking out my services because they read the book, and they say, I do realize that a lot of them are in charge of innovation, a lot of them in charge of AI transformation. And they like cognitively, logically, I understand I need to become more open-minded. I understand that I need to start taking risks. I understand I cannot paralyze my team because I need certainty and all the data. But when it comes time to leading and executing on all the stuff that I know, I'm feeling paralyzed myself.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00So we do we do need help. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because think about it, like we cannot the if we think about self-reflection, it's very helpful, but it has limits. Because when we reflecting on ourselves, on the world, we're still using our operating system that might be outdated. We're still using the same lens to which we'll filter out anything that does not align with what we say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that feels uncomfortable. I'm not gonna think that. Yeah, yeah. That's not true. Yeah, I'm not going, I'm not going there. Which I think what is why your work is so important. Um, I that session I was mentioning that I did, it was actually around innovation and how our need to be right affects our ability to be innovative, through, as you said, through open-mindedness and being right and all the things. And after I had a follow-up session, and one of the guys in the in the class said, I don't think I'm supposed to be talking right now because I just learned that I I speak too quickly and I try to answer and I'm trying to be right all the time. And he's like, I'm just gonna sit here and listen now. And I thought, well, good for you, because you're it it hit him. Yeah, but then where do you go with that? You know, it's like, okay, I was like leaving this thing thinking, now what do I do? And as you said, how do I make that actionable? And if people are just processing themselves, as you said, we have limited capability and capacity to lead ourselves through that process. So, how do we how do we sit in the discomfort and then reach for resources that'll be helpful for that transformation?
Adult Development And Early Conditioning
SPEAKER_01So tell us, you know, when you think about the book that you wrote and and leaderwired, and I I can hardly rate to wait to read it because I know I'm gonna absolutely love it. Um how how did you culminate all the research and thinking to write that book in a way that um that prompts people to want to change? Like, what do you feel like is the the driving force of we need to be wired in a different way? Does that question even make sense?
SPEAKER_00Well, let me try to untangle it.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01It was it was like a 13-sentence question.
SPEAKER_00You know, I I I think the reason why, because there's so many different pieces of puzzle that I was throwing into the book. Yeah, there's just there is no just one thing. Yes, there is a complexity around how we as human beings evolved and how we wired. Yeah, so just understanding that the whole process and journey of self-development of that evolution of as human beings, it's supposed to feel uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02It will, right?
SPEAKER_00That's the foundation before we even start unpacking and peeling the layers of the onion, because there will be so many, and it will feel like the ground under us is completely cracking and shifting, and we're losing ourselves and we're losing our identity and what we believe about who we are, how we operate, and how other people perceive us. Because now we shine the light into something we thought we know really well, yeah. And we uncover a lot of things that we didn't realize from there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I didn't mean to interrupt, but I'm when back when I, you know, again, my academic career, I was I graduated in education, so it was um it wasn't to teach, it was educate, it was uh rehabilitation counseling psychology. But, you know, back then the premise for a lot of the work we were doing in that area was childhood development. It wasn't about adult development. You know, back many decades ago, it wasn't there wasn't access to the fact that self-development occurs after you go to school. And I think part of the important part of the research you're also doing is that adult development is a thing, but people don't realize, oh, that's a thing. How do I know if I'm developed as an adult? And especially now we're an adult, and as you said, our identity is already wired, and so now it's gonna be more painful in school. When we're going through school and even college and high school, we expect to be challenged, we expect to learn new things, but now as adults, that feels even more scary. And as you said, then our identity shifts because we're already anchored in who we think we are. Yeah. So I think that's real that's really an important piece of the work that you're doing is self-development and identity development is already there. Now let's look at all the different ways that you're thinking and what you believe and the assumptions you're making.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I'm glad you bringing uh going beyond adult development and stepping backwards and looking at childhood development and how all the experiences, all the conditioning that we went through actually developed our architecture in the first place. Yes, yes. And it used to be valuable for us, maybe when we were seven or ten, and it was an adaptation for something, right? So we can achieve good grades. That's how we get reward, that's how we belong, that's how we get laugh, maybe. But when you are in your 50s and you never change and upgraded that old architecture that you were operating from when you were seven or ten, yeah, it will create friction, and you wouldn't even know why. Yeah, so connecting the dots and understanding there is a nature of how we're born, which is curious, right? We are not scared of making mistakes. How many questions are we asking adults and driving them crazy? Yes, right, and then we go through the system, we go through school, we go in through having all the right answers, memorizing things. By the time we arrive in adulthood, there's so many layers of conditioning. Yeah, but we never chose that conditioning, like we didn't choose that programming, it was just programmed. Yes. So for us, having that responsibility to discern what is still serving me and what are the things that no longer are true. Maybe I needed them 15 years ago, but not now.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, yeah. I think that's an important foundation for people to explore and understand. But it's funny too, because I don't know that everyone wants to explore
Burnout As A Forced Wake Up
SPEAKER_01it. I don't know that everyone, you know, oh yeah. You and I talked about burnout, you know, that burnout sometimes causes us to re-examine, like, what are we doing? And as you said, even for people that are reading your book and realizing, like, oh my gosh, I have to be the one to lead this transformation or change with AI or innovation, and yeah, I have to look at it. Um, so if you look at the people who want help going forward, you mentioned people reading the book, kind of the innovation AI transformation is prompting me to think differently. You and I talked about burnout a little. So, how do you see burnout contributing to people's need to self-examine?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so oftentimes the pain of not changing needs to become more significant.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So literally, people who arrive into burnout they have no more energy to give, they cannot double down on what's not not working. Yeah, so now they actually sitting in a space where, like, what am I doing? Something needs to be different. I cannot operate from the same exact belief or thought process or assumption. So they forced into change because staying the same is no longer an option. It becomes more painful, more uncomfortable than actually doing the work of change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's unfortunate, right, that we wait for some type of crisis, whether it's a health crisis, work crisis, to really say, okay, no more. I'm willing to do the work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I was working with someone recently who's, you know, the stress was so big that she ended up hospitalized physically, you know, with physical manifestations of all that stress. And the the not realizing what was happening along that journey and what was contributing to it. And she, you know, got to this point and she's like, I can't do this again. I can't get to the point where I'm so physically ill and I can't manage all the thoughts in my head because she wasn't even aware that they were occurring, right? So she got really sick. Um, and that's a hard, it's a hard lesson, as you said, a hard way to learn that lesson. Um, but sometimes that's what it takes to compel people to get there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which is sad. It is, and that's why I almost like urge everybody. I'm like, don't wait for the crisis. Yeah, start doing the work now. Understand, yes, it will feel uncomfortable, but you are actually in the driver's seat. So it does give you a certain level of uh confidence and certainty because you are doing the work. And if you do the work, neuroplasticity, we can rewire, right? We can rewire the brain, we can change our habits, we can change our way. There's no such a thing as old dogs don't learn new tricks, right? That's a great belief that would limit anybody. So if we understand that it's supposed to feel uncomfortable, anybody who does physical exercise, right? We know we need to stress the muscle, we need to put it under tension, otherwise it won't grow. Well, when it comes to leadership, our work is here intellectual, mental, and emotional. So if we do not create tension, we're not gonna change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And sitting with that comfort, as we've talked about, is difficult. And if I don't know how to work through it, then I'm gonna stay stuck in it. And that's even worse. Right now I've uh I've uncovered it. I'm awkward, I'm uncomfortable. How long am I gonna hang out here without a good solution? And I think the work that you're doing is so powerful because it provides people an outlet, a solution, a way to process it, a way to work through that discomfort. And as you said, sometimes that's just sitting with the discomfort. And yes, you know, but having someone that can do that with you is so important. And for your coaching and and the work that you're doing, I think that's a superpower that you have because you get it, you understand it, you can help absolutely something that is so helpful to remember like the more you resist something, the more it will persist.
Stop Resisting Discomfort
SPEAKER_00Yes, we feel uncomfortable, right? And the urges to get rid of it. I don't want to feel this way. Yeah, so if we try to turn to TV, something, right? Something to get our mind away so we don't feel the way we feel. But if we sit in that discomfort and we realize there's nothing to resist, I like the simple thing of the Chinese uh finger trap. I don't know so you can get it on Amazon. It's it's okay. So simple, but it proves the concept. If you put your finger inside of the Chinese finger trap and you try to pull it out with force, you resist, it will actually grab you much harder. There is no way out. The only way out is actually to relax, which is the opposite. Relax and it will let you go. But we don't think that way, right? It feels uncomfortable, we resist. We need a solution, we need it right now. So, literally, for some of my clients, I'll give them a chinous finger trap. Oh, I love that. So next time you're feeling this urge to fix something where there's no problem, there's just a discomfort. Yeah, look at the chinous finger trap, put your finger there.
SPEAKER_01That is uh I'm gonna get myself one of those. And just sit with it, right? And well, in sitting with it and breathing with it and being fully present with it, as you said, that's a discipline. It's we have to help people to understand that discipline with the um resisting our natural tendencies. So it's a lot of rewinding. All right, genius finger trap. Amazon help me out on that. So with all the things that we've talked about, and and I think your um, you know, all the things that you're helping people with are so real and and feel so urgent today, right? And in the people that I work with, and the you know, the um the research that I do as well, everything validates and reinforces the work you're doing.
One Small Shift Curiosity For 30 Days
SPEAKER_01Um, what if if you could give leaders one piece of advice right now? Like what would uh other than I think everyone should run and get your book, obviously. Because I think that's that's important to understand. Understand that it's not that we're broken, it's not that we're you know not good people. There's a lot, as you said, development is occurring, the world is changing, and we have to re-examine the things that we believe and know. So, with all that said, what advice would you give to leaders today?
SPEAKER_00I think something that is so helpful because oftentimes we have intelligent, ambitious people and they try to fix it all at the same time. And that's how we create overwhelm, yeah, that's how we overcommit, and that is why behavior does not become a sustainable change.
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I would invite curiosity over self-judgment. So if you start realizing, hey, I do realize something needs to change, this is not a place to judge or something is broken, just like you said, Cindy, right? It's a place of exploration and starting very, very small. So one thing that you want to start exploring, one thing that you want to change, literally one small behavior. Maybe if you start noticing, oh wow, I actually say that I value innovation, but anytime my team brings me new ideas, yeah, and and you catch yourself saying, Oh, that won't work. Nah, that's stupid. No, I know this industry. If you start noticing, you're literally shutting your people down, but in your heart, you do, you want to be creative, you want to innovate. It's a great example. It's great, right? We just surfaced something that is outdated. At some point it served you, but right now, in order to lead through change, in order to innovate, in order to deploy AI effectively, now you realize what is it that needs to change? That's great. That's a map. It's not something that is broken, it just is a map. Now we know what we need to work on, and the small shift could look like next time when somebody brings me an idea, and my immediate urge is to shut it down. Instead, I will take a deep breath. I will lean on curiosity and just ask one question to help me understand that idea better. That's it, that's all I will practice for the next 30 days and see how it feels. Because now you're doing wraps, just like a physical exercise, you're doing mental reps to start building that muscle of curiosity to help you shift from certainty, rigidity. I know all the answers, I prove my value by giving all the answers to.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_00I actually. Don't need to prove anything. I proved enough. Now I lead effectively through asking questions, curious questions, quality questions, helping me discern what's truly matters. And that's that's a big shift. But as you see, it's just one behavior, one step at a time.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Which is actionable, it's doable to the extent that people can realize they're doing that thing. You know, what is but I love that we because you started with val, you know, what do I value?
Values As Your Anchor In Uncertainty
SPEAKER_01If I value innovation, am I truly fostering innovation? And um that that kind of goes back to I think leaders understanding what their values are. You know, what are those values that represent? I ask people a lot, like, do um people uh lead by example? Do you want to lead by example? And everyone's like, yeah, I want to lead by example. And I had a podcast years ago that says stop leading by example because if you don't know the example you're setting, you don't want to really say that. Right. And that's a great disconnect. Like I value innovation, but I stink at it. You know, I'm I'm really so I think being grounded in what do I really care about as a leader? What are my values? Um, what are the things that I want to emulate in my leadership is such an important first step. Because then you can do what you just said is where's the disconnect? Um how do I really explore how I may be inadvertently um uh eroding those values or not displaying them. Yeah, that's a great example. I love that, Anna. Yeah. Anything else that you want to share with the audience? This has been so wonderful. Um, wonderful to see you again, to to listen to the work that you're doing. And I, you know, am truly um profoundly grateful that there are people in the world doing this kind of work because um I see the effect of people not doing the work themselves because either one, they don't realize it, or two, they don't know how. So for you as a resource, I'm just profoundly grateful that you're you're bringing this into the universe for people to access. That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you. And you know, the work that I do, it's so aligned with my values, like and what I want to bring to the world. And uh there's the whole chapter around values and values alignment in the book. Okay. So yeah, so what we talk about, this is so important, especially when you feel your identity is challenged, especially when you feel that uncertainty and maybe fear and overwhelm. There's something you need that will serve as an anchor, something that will ground you in the middle of the storm and uncertainty when you try to grasp for answers and there are no answers. Like, what do you do? So now it creates a values aligned groundedness to which you can make decisions. It will, it could literally be your North Star when everything else crumbles. So values is such an important thing.
SPEAKER_01That's oh, that's fantastic. I can't wait. I apologize. I haven't even read the book yet. I know since we talked, I'm like, I gotta get this. Um, so I apologize for that. I'll probably have I'll probably be calling you back. I'll need a second podcast, Dano. I'm on chapter 10 or five.
SPEAKER_00There's so much to unpack in that book.
SPEAKER_01It's I'm sure there is, and I know I'm gonna love every chapter of it. So um but thank you for being on the podcast today and summarizing the work and and also your journey to get to the work you're doing. Because I think that's an important part for you know, so many organizations that I'm sure we both worked with over the years who just want to drive change and transformation and innovation. The processes and practices are important, yeah, right. Like having those uh is essential. Like there's got to be some structure and discipline. But as you said, what derails us, it's the head and the heart of the people that you're trying to move in that direction. And I think exploring that and being able to fundamentally understand that, um, but what to do about it is essential. Absolutely, yes,
AI Transformation Needs A Human Budget
SPEAKER_01yeah.
SPEAKER_00And one more thing to add to that uh when companies start thinking about transformation, AI adoption, they can start looking at their budget. Where do they allocate the budget? And what I would see, there is a lot of allocation towards technology, processes, systems.
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course.
SPEAKER_00But what about the human side?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and do you see that few people investing in the human side or not?
SPEAKER_00I think right now there's a little bit of a wake-up moment because for the past, what was it, like three or four years, there's like people trying to adopt AI, organizations trying to figure it out. But in 95% of the time, there is no return on investment. So right now, finally, you know, what I would talk about two years ago, people like, wait, what do you said actually start making sense now? Yeah, there's the human side of change. So I think we had to arrive into a little bit of crisis in order to wake up and now start even thinking about oh, there's a human side of change.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Well, it's the same thing you're talking about with people. Now we're seeing it at a system level and seeing it at a bigger organizational level, and like, oh yeah, we got to figure this out. Exactly. And I know, and as you said, you know, I'm already seeing it in the leaders that I work with and the like, you know, the courses or experiences or speaking engagement. I already feel the tension and people are feeling the tension. And as you said, it's it's that tent moment of tension where we can start to create a pathway forward, as you said, kind of the map, the map to what do we do next and how do we explore that, not just from a process side, but through the people side and the identity and all the things. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you, Anna, for your time today, your energy for the research that you're doing and the work that you're doing in the universe. As I mentioned, it's um, I think it's important for all of us to be mindful of the changes that we're making, to live through that awkwardness, but also to have a partner to help us work through that, right? And to know that it's safe and it's okay and it's gonna be okay. Um, and and I think that support system to make it psychologically and emotionally safe to do it is part of the experience. So you're that you can be that person, and you already have for so many people.
SPEAKER_00So I think you shouldn't. Yeah, yeah. And you know, something tension is not something to get rid of, it's like the it's the energy to be harnessed. Yes, and if you align it with your values, just like an error, right? You can actually it gives you acceleration. Yes, and then of course the support system that you mentioned. I think if we have those two things, yeah, we can do great things, especially with the capability of the tool that we have right now. Yes, I think we can solve a lot of problems that humanity is facing.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Let's do that, Anna. Let's solve problems of humanity starting today. One step at a time. One step at a time, one podcast episode at a time. Thank you again for your time today. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Thank you for having
Final Takeaways And Subscribe
SPEAKER_00me.
SPEAKER_01Hey, wasn't she awesome? I think it's so interesting that AI may be changing the tools we use, but there's a deeper leadership challenge here around it changing the patterns within us. How can we continue to add value beyond our technical capabilities and our expertise? And we don't need to overhaul everything at once, um, but identifying one outdated practice and one outdated response can be a really small behavior change that moves us in the right direction. If this conversation gave you something to think about, please subscribe to Intentional Leaders Podcast so you don't miss out on what's next. In the meantime, continue to lead with purpose and intention.