The Intentional Leaders Podcast: Helping ambitious leaders gain clarity, communicate with confidence, and lead with intention.

When “Tough Love” Is Control: The Hidden Cost of Fear-Based Leadership

• Cyndi

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Ever worked for someone who made you feel small on purpose? We unpack the rise of fear-based leadership—why it’s suddenly everywhere, how it disguises itself as “tough love” or mission-driven care, and what it costs teams in creativity, trust, and retention. With coach and author Kate Lori, we translate the playbook of control into plain language and offer a counterplay that preserves your energy, agency, and integrity.

We start by defining fear-based leadership through real-world patterns: shaming, rigidity, moving goalposts, and the velvet-glove approach that cloaks dominance in benevolence. Then we connect the cultural dots—media narratives and high-profile executives that have normalized a harsher style—and explore why stressed leaders default to fight, freeze, or fawn. You’ll learn how chronic threat hijacks the brain, why innovation collapses under fear, and how to spot subtext when words don’t match motives.

From there, we get practical. Kate shares resilience moves that actually work: using humor as strategic resistance, protecting information that could be weaponized, and treating attention and availability as levers. We dig into the ethical difference between manipulation and influence, showing how to nudge outcomes without losing your values. For leaders who see fearful patterns in themselves, we offer hopeful steps—expanding the window of tolerance, rebuilding self-trust with daily reps, and embracing the “kindergarten lessons” of apologies, friendship, and trust-building.

We close by charting a better path: strengths-based leadership. Unblock your team, amplify their talents, and share power so performance follows. If you’ve felt stuck in a fear-driven culture, you’ll leave with a clearer map, sturdier boundaries, and a renewed belief that you can be powerful without becoming hard. If this resonated, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway—what’s one lever you’ll pull first?


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Connect with Cyndi:

www.intentionaleaders.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherinejlowry/

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to the Intentional Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Cindy Bartland, and today I am thrilled to invite Kate Lori to our podcast. She is a coach and author of a newly published book called Unbreakable. The things that you'll gain from listening to this podcast are all about fear-based leadership. So, number one, how to recognize and understand it, what it looks like, why it's increasing, and the damage it causes to both people and performance. Secondly, we'll learn practical strategies to protect ourselves, influence more effectively, and navigate fear-based leaders with confidence and clarity. Number three, do you want to build leadership habits that are healthier through self-awareness, compassion, and tools that strengthen your resilience, agency, and authentic leadership? Well, then you're in the right spot. Welcome to the Intentional Leaders Podcast. And I am so excited to have Kate here with me this morning. So thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to join me today. Oh, thank you, Pascal. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I am uh diving in and have been exploring your book that you sent me a copy of uh from last time we talked, Unbreakable. And a lot of that um insight and research is what we're gonna talk about this morning. And here's some of the things that I wrote down. Uh, fear is easier to lead by. Um, you're seeing a lot of style shifts in this area. The gloves are off, people are less interested in equality, and TV shows have really normalized this behavior. And you're on the West Coast, of course. We're in the Midwest, and sometimes I think there's a lot of leaders operating on the Midwest nice strategy, but you're seeing different shifts style-wise. So, um, how did you even get started focusing on those leadership shifts and trends in the way that you describe them today?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. So, in my coaching practice, I work with CEOs all around the country and some internationally. And it was about a year ago that I started to notice a major shift in the way stakeholders and the ecosystems, my CEOs and I were operating in. When I when I started my career, um, it was about three in 10 leaders I would encounter would have fear-based tendencies. And in the last two or three years, it's become more like seven and ten. You know, I was going to um like coffee meetups and running group, and all of my friends were going, Man, I have a really difficult boss, and I just can't get away. And every job I take, there's something wrong with leadership, and it's it's hard and I don't like it. And um, and I started to realize that this trend was becoming more inescapable. And in in the Midwest, it does show up a bit differently uh because it's at least coded in Midwest nice. Right. Um not saying it isn't there. Yeah, this kind of like low empathy, top-down, hierarchical style is is really sweeping all across society right now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so you've seen this change in behavior, you've seen the change in in leadership style. And um, what prompted you to write about it and to research it in the way that you have?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, as this trend kind of grew, I noticed that my clients and peers were spinning out. They were freezing, overwhelmed, panicking, because people in their ecosystems uh and and more broadly were acting in ways they'd never seen before. Um, and so they were really struggling. Um, but I was totally fine. And it was at that point that I noticed that I had a skill set that they didn't have, and I went, oh my gosh, you know, I have to figure out a way to teach this to people. And I didn't expect to write a book, but it quickly turned into a book. And it's meant to be this tactical guide where it feels like you're, you know, sitting in a coffee shop across from a friend who's teaching you how to deal with really difficult people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yeah. And well, and I love that you started out the whole book talking about yourself, you know, yourself for us, like people, um, our identity, our physical self, or the way that we navigate through the world before you start talking about, you know, what to do, it's really focused on understanding who we are and how we react to the world. And I thought that was a really amazing way and very insightful way to think about the effect of other people on us and how strong are we and how unbreakable are we in the context of what we're experiencing, as you said, kind of in our ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01:

So oh, definitely. A lot of people who write books that teach new types of tactics don't think about how to make sure that the readers are actually in a place to apply the tactics. And you have to make sure that readers are feeling resilient and that they have enough energy to actually try new things. So it's important to teach that first, um, because otherwise half the readers may not be able to actually do do what you're suggesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes. So start with the foundation, and I think that was a a great, a great way to position what you're focused on. So you used the term fear-based leaders in your work and um and throughout the book. What does that phrase mean to you? And how did your leadership journey shape how you defined what that is? Definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

So fear based leaders are called fear-based because they themselves are motivated by fear, they're really deeply insecure people. And at night, you know, their subconscious is whispering, oh, why don't they like me? Will I ever be enough? And because fear is kind of what gets them out of the bed in the morning, it's what they choose to use to motivate others. And so they have this very distinctive style of deliberately creating fear, chaos, discord in the people below them. Um, but it's it's not something that's just confined to CEOs. This shows up wherever there are power dynamics that can be abused, can come up in families, nonprofits, businesses. Um, really, wherever there are power structures, there are going to be some people who say, power, yum. I'm gonna stomp on everyone below me.

SPEAKER_00:

What's interesting about that or ironic, I remember um getting into leadership and I wanted to be successful and I was very career-driven, but I somehow didn't want power. You know, that that association with power to me was always negative. And maybe it was negative because I experienced some of that maybe in a way that I didn't wasn't even clear with or about at the time. Um, but I never want it. It wanted it. And then I think some people do and crave it and think, as you said, yum, like let's let's go, right? But then they're yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the people who crave it are usually the ones who shouldn't have it. Um I'm I'm also what you would call a reluctant leader. Um, you know, I was trained to be a CEO and um, but I never really wanted to run a big company. And um, I was trained, you know, by my parents who were fair base leaders, to be a fair base leader myself, and I didn't want that either. And so um for folks out there who don't want that path, it's okay to want to just um be you and do your thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's what jumped out to me too in your story is learning to be and wanting to be your authentic self, right? That you were able to be you and um and navigate through the world leading in your own style and in your own way. And I think that's a message that I definitely want people to take away with that I work with too, is like be you, you know, there's not a specific way to lead per se. Um, but abusing power is not a great one to do. So no, yeah. So when you think about your um your experience with fear-based leaders, and then you got really interested in it, what were some or give us some examples so people know what that looks like in action?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, definitely. So fear-based leaders will will often um try to shame people in the workplace. They'll try to say, you know, you're incompetent, you're bad, you know, none of this is good enough, like you're nothing without me. And then resistance is futile, like you wouldn't even be able to survive on your own, you you can't leave, that type of thing. They're also very highly capricious. They'll try to neg you and put you down um by making you feel bad about your choices or or your abilities. Um, and then they're also quite rigid. In business, sometimes we call this type of rigidity top-down leadership, which which says, you know, I'm going to hold things very tightly at the top and then push, push all of this down. So it might be saying, This is my strategic plan. I don't want your input. Your input doesn't matter, do this or else. Right. Um, in Silicon Valley right now, we're seeing quite a few leaders who are um saying, I don't care if you don't like me. I don't care if you don't like the company. If you don't want to be here, um, get out. Um, we're seeing a lot of leaders who are saying, My opinion is the only opinion that matters. I don't care what you think, um, get in line. And when I say jump, say how high, right? And and for folks who are, you know, who do have common decency, this feels ooh, really yucky. It creates this this feeling of, oh yikes, I have to walk on eggshells. And it's genuinely tough to deal with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Is it that blatant? Like, is it that blatant in terms of saying those things, or is it more subtle, or is it both?

SPEAKER_01:

In some cases, yes, it is exactly that blatant. And those are all things I have specifically heard fear base leaders say in workplaces. Um, however, depending on the region of the country and depending on the industry, in some places it's less overt, um, particular, particularly um female fear-based leaders are often uh more subtle. Um, they might um relentlessly criticize your work, um, but pretend to be nice sometimes. They might say, Oh, I'm just looking out for you, so I need to tell you all of your faults, or you know, um things like that. But whether it is just an iron fist or an iron fist in a velvet glove, the motivation is the same and the result ends up being the same. A lot of leaders like this will strategically use cloaking of benevolence. Um, you know, they'll say, Oh, well, I'm a medical doctor and I run Doctors Without Borders, or, you know, I'm a pastor and I'm just caring for my flock. And if you don't understand, that's your problem. Or um, you know, they'll say, Well, I'm your mentor and I'm just doing this to help you. And so um, it does tend to show up, even if they don't show that type of face at first, it will often emerge the more control they feel they have over you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this is this is such so fascinating to me. I I tend to go through life um trusting everybody, thinking everybody is good, that everyone has pure intentions, um, and it it has uh got me in a little bit of trouble occasionally because I really do believe that. And then when I hear things like you're talking about whether it's you know covert or overt, I uh it always surprises me about people. And um, so I I'm I get surprised by it. But you also talked about the fact that you feel like the shift is becoming more prevalent, and it feels like we're going backwards in time, you know, to the hierarchical power-based leaders of decades ago. I mean, in in the workplace many, many years ago, that was, I don't want to say it was okay, but it was what was natural or more um more visible, and it feel it feels or seems like we've shifted over time, but now it's going backwards. And why do you think that's happening?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, just like just like Sony Jeans versus Bell Bottoms, leadership styles go in and out of Vogue. And and this particular shift is the largest shift I have seen in my career. Um, what I will say is that we're in a new era of permissiveness. Um even if you look at our TV shows, you see like billions, succession, house of cards, game of thrones, they all have fear-based leaders in them. And when you combine media with a lot of very high-profile leaders, you know, Gilon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and and what have you, um, saying, no, this is the way I want to be. Um, you get a lot of people in the ecosystem who go, Oh, yeah, I do want to be like that. That's easier than being mature, that's easier than making my employees like me. And so, you know, previously, five years ago, ten years ago, CEOs felt like they had to at least pretend to care about their employees. And and now they don't feel like they have to pretend.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Oh, this just makes my heart hurt, truly. I know. Well, when that you've seen it, you've experienced it, and and this is how you coach people too. And as you encounter leaders like this in your practice and in your work and in your research, um, how I guess how would someone become aware that they were leading like this? And how would they um or would they become aware and would they care? And that's how they reach out to you for coaching, or how does it how does that process work? Because I would imagine if I'm, you know, if I'm doing things that are ineffective, and as you said, it's easier for me to do to be showing up that way. How do you get people to change?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I I often work with mission-driven and underrepresented leaders. Um, they they have fewer tendencies like this, but they often are in ecosystems brokered by players like this. So they're investors, they're venture capitalists, um, some of their vendors, their attorneys, other startups they want to acquire often have players like this in them. I have coached some people who would count as fear-based leaders in the past. Um, you can only make progress with them if they have a sliver of self-awareness. Um they have to be kind of not totally gone. Um and with them, what I have to teach them is is the very high cost of what they're doing. Uh, and saying you care about money, this is making you lose money. You know, you care about um looking cool, this is making you look really not cool. And and and so framing it in terms of incentives that they understand is important because in reality, this leadership style chokes innovation. Because when people are afraid, they're amygdale as hijacked, they can't be creative. And when they're afraid, they're never gonna share their best ideas with their leader because they don't want to be ridiculed. Um it often causes major attrition problems, it affects the bottom line. And leaders like this will say, Oh, I just can't find good workers anymore. No one understands my mission, things like that. Um, but you know, it really does create a cost for them, and so um I can hold the light on the path for them, but I I can't make them walk it if they don't want to.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. And have you found people who've walked it with you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, I mean, I was raised to be a fear-based leader and I chose a very different path. And so it's it's certainly possible. Um, I will say that sometimes people have fear-based tendencies when they're living in kind of like stress response crisis states. It's just like how a lot of new parents find some surprising bad behaviors coming out when their kids arrive and start pressing all their buttons. Right. Um weird. A lot of CEOs are are, you know, a bit in over their head when their company goes from five employees to 100 in 12 months. Um, and they're overwhelmed with leaderships like that. Of course, like that's often more about triaging their calendars, making sure they have space to be a person, you know, helping them get to a place where they don't feel like people are constantly pulling at them or pushing on them. Um, I think a lot of people don't realize how much pressure is exerted on leaders. You know, the CEOs that I work with maybe make 20 decisions an hour, and each one makes some people mad. And that's a lot of flowback. And their investors want things, their spouses want things, their employees want things, but with most of those people, they're not allowed to say, ah, I don't know what I'm doing, or hey, I need help, because they have to project an image of strength. And so that can be really tricky for them to navigate.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for sure. And when you're caught in that endless cycle of stress and um really releasing all those stress hormones continuously, it doesn't really go away to allow you the capacity and I think the capability to be able to think creatively yourself, right? Much less invent in others um being optimal around innovation, creativity, etc. So certainly.

SPEAKER_01:

I just wrote an article which I thank you, thank you for subscribing to my newsletter. I wrote about the angry edge of burnout. Um I think like employees tend to think about burnout as oh, I just feel like I can't do anything. But with with leaders, what happens is they're not allowed to not do anything when they're burnt out. Yes, yes, and they have to push through anyway, and it leads to some pretty yucky, yucky types of situations.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, reading your articles, I I have found it very enlightening and uh very interesting your perspective on kind of what's happening with leaders showing up in that way, but also the effect of those leaders on others. And I and really I think that's the work you're also doing is saying, how do you cope with this when you find yourself in a situation, right? And what do you do with that? And I think you you've written and mentioned um humor as a coping tool and also as a connector. And I I love humor and I love laughter because I think it allows us to be authentic, more vulnerable, what what's really going on in the world, and you know, not taking things as you said so seriously. Um, but how how do you see that as helpful in these situations?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, first of all, like all of my work around free-based leaders is focused on helping people preserve agency and autonomy so that they they can lead joyful lives even when they're stuck in bad situations. Um, but I'm only writing in that way because it's starting to be where they can't avoid bad situations and bad leaders. Um, if you can leave, you always should. Um and then yeah, I think. I think that these types of leaders, you can almost think of them as energy vampires. They want you to be like miserable, they want you to be unhappy, they want you to feel destabilized because that makes you much easier to control. And these types of leaders feed on attention. So if they're not likable, that means that the only attention they can get is by trapping people around them. And so they they want you to be around them and they want to be able to see big reactions from you. They want to see that you're unhappy, they want to see that you're mad, and so on. And so the the biggest thing that you can do to resist is to be joyful, is is to keep a sense of humor. Um I, in my experience, fair based leaders find it incredibly maddening. Um, if you come in and you're happy and collaborative and warm and friendly when they're trying to crush you. Um and so um that is really like the best form of resistance. And so I say to anyone dealing with a leader like this, you know, identify at least three things that brings you energy or brings you joy and and do those things at least three times a week.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Um an energy vampire, it sounds like in the Harry Potter Potter movies or books, you know, the these are almost like the dementors of the humanors.

SPEAKER_01:

That was they suck out your soul or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't remember what they did to prevent that, but I like your idea of being joyful, being present, right? Just being warm, connecting, um, as a as an anecdote to all of this. And as you said, it's I think it's you know, leaving is an option when you're in a situation like this, but I think that's um, as you said, leaving takes you out of it, but you might find yourself in the same situation again in some way, shape, or form. So, how do you do that work internally to really protect yourself? Is the part of you know your research that I think is so important. So, um, in addition to being joyful as a part of the resistance, um, how else do you promote agency and autonomy? What would that look like? If I was, if I wanted more personal power, to feel more personal power, what what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. So, in my book, I kind of outline 30 different levers. You could think of these as levers to influence the fear-based leader to stay away from what you want to protect and to treat you in ways that are more acceptable. The thing is, the levers are not obvious unless you take the time to learn them. Because fear-based leaders basically it's like they're on FM radio and we're on AM. And so if you don't learn how to tune into their channel, it's just a really demoralizing, confusing experience. And so to cover some of like the really key things to understand, first, um, you have to understand that what they say is not what they mean. If they say, I'm so bad at you, this product needs to be out by Friday, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, um, they're not actually talking about the product needing to be out by Friday. They're they're typically saying something more like, I don't feel respected, show me deference. I and so um, if you learn to understand the subtext and what they're saying and can tune into that, it de-escalates them because then they feel heard. Um, because often they're speaking in a very emotional wavelength. And then they tend to weaponize information. So you have to keep your cards very close to your chest and be mindful of what you say. Even innocuous things, if you say, Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to go to my kids' little league game this weekend, um, they will make you work through the kids' little league game. Or, you know, if if you say, like, wow, like um, I love Jan's work, Jan's work is so great, isn't she doing well? Um they'll feel threatened that you like Jan more than them and you know, fire fire Jan or something like that. And so um that's really important to understand. And then learning to use both attention and availability as leverage um does help bring some control and power back to your plate. So leaders like this, you could think of them as needing to eat your energy and attention to survive. And so um, if you learn to modulate how much attention you are giving them, um, you can then control some of their reactions. So um, one of the main things is they love to get big reactions out of people. So you can learn to not react. Um, or you can choose to have big reactions in ways that incentivize them to keep doing or stop doing whatever it is that they're doing. Um, similarly with availability, when people around fear-based leaders are not available 24-7, the leaders start spiraling. They go, Well, do they even see me as important? And you know, does this even matter? And so um, using your availability as a form of leverage um can help make the fear-based leader doubt themselves and make them, you know, start to be more insecure where you yourself are more secure.

SPEAKER_00:

So, do you feel like um in terms of how to preserve and how to protect my autonomy and agency in the way that you're describing, how would I feel or how would I be able to do that in a way that doesn't feel manipulative? Because now I feel like now I'm manipulate I'm being manipulative to that person.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't that true? It's actually not true. So tactics themselves are morally neutral. However, most people that you see using social tactics are using them in a negative way. That's called manipulation. Okay. When when you use social tactics in a positive way to protect or prevent harm, that's called influence. Um, you're influencing the outcome, but you're doing it for reasons that are not selfish reasons. You're doing it to keep yourself safe, you're doing it um to help make sure that the initiatives or the people you care about are are protected from bad behavior. And it's it's really important that people do not feel guilty about that. Um, because strategy is something that everyone can use. And strategy does not have to be used in a way that harms others.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Yeah, that's a great way to describe the difference. And I do um I do some training on influence, and I think people do see or I have a hard time understanding how it is um a positive aspect of leadership as opposed to the whole manipulation. But I I love the way that you described it um in terms of the ethics around it and what's your intention as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely the the way fear-based leaders see it is everything is a game, and the people around them are playing it whether they like it or not. Yeah, and and so if someone is playing games with you and you choose to completely not engage, you're probably going to get harmed.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so you need to recognize the games that they're playing at least enough to try to step out of them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, yeah, or or else it ends up affecting you negatively.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. There's a a leadership tool that I use um with some of the groups. Um, it's about um, it's called the individual dimensions inventory, but it's about your emotional energy and and where do you have natural tendencies and preferences? And there's one, and I can't think, I don't know why the name of it is escaping me right now, but it is about what you're talking about. How much do you like strategy and games? And think I always think of it as life is a giant chessboard, you know, and do you uh really enjoy the strategizing about where to go and what to do? Um, and I think on that particular preference, I scored like a two, meaning I don't do that. I'm I'm just very much like here I am, and here's what I'm thinking, or here's what I'm doing, or here's what I'm saying. And so that the ability to do that, or even the preference to do that, is so unlike my style that I just have a really hard time grasping.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Here's an example. So um let's say that you ghost a friend and you don't reply to them for two months, and that's that's not polite, right? It's not a good thing. Um, but let's say you have a friend who's emotionally abusing you and you stop talking to them. That is actually highly appropriate and it's protective. And so it's the exact same behavior, you know, saying I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. Um, but in one context, uh it is it is negative, and in another context, it's positive. And so that's kind of like a way to think about um, you know, different same behavior, different lights.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, that's helpful very much. So as you as you coach leaders, you said, you know, they're able to be coached to the extent there's a sliver of self-awareness there, or they can understand the impact that they're having. Um, do you have a success story of someone that you've coached to evolve and shift? Like, is there hope, Kate?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there is hope. Um, you know, I actually was on a podcast with a host who realized he was a fear-based leader while he was interviewing me. Um, and then uh he wanted to know whether there was any chance of redemption. And and I said, you know, there is hope until your last day on earth, right? There any any day you can wake up and say, I'm going to be different today. I'm going to be a better version of myself. And um, it may mean that people like that need significant support to learn different ways of thinking. But at the at their core, people like this are like schoolyard bullies who grew up. And the thing about schoolyard bullies is that a lot of them missed what I call kindergarten lessons. They they don't know how to make friends, they don't know how to apologize, they don't know how to build trust. And so I try to remember when interacting with fear-based leaders, even when they are being quite destructive, um, at their core, they're very emotionally sensitive people who never really got the training in how to be a good person.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. That's sad. It's sad when you think of it that way and think of it from the perspective of what contributes to it, not just the effect of it, but the historical perspective that someone is showing up the way they are. And looking at that, what I and again, what I I enjoy about your perspective on all this and the research and the and the writing that you've done is I don't think you're in a way, you I don't know how to say this, you're not shaming or blaming as much as trying to understand the context around it and the effect. And then how do people understand it themselves for them? Or how do you again um, you know, show up in a healthy, helpful way for your own self and creating that personal power.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, my my approach is rooted in curiosity and compassion. Yeah, it's it's saying, um, wow, we're seeing a lot of difficult people right now. They're becoming pretty inescapable. And a lot of people are feeling very alone, very isolated, very powerless. So I'm going to teach them that they're powerful, not powerless. I'm going to teach them how these difficult people think and how to protect themselves around them. Um, but you know, if if some fear-based leaders came to me and said, I want to be different, teach me how to be different, you know, I would write a book for them that says, This is why you are the way you are. And this is how you can be different. Um, because whether you're someone who you know currently abuses or are being abused, you're you're both human beings and you deserve support and um care. And I think that a lot of people get very lost in ad hominem. But my coaching practice is not it takes people out of me versus you dynamics and tries to recenter it into this problem.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, you're getting no, you just got a little stuck.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, so go ahead. Yeah, I was just saying that you know, my my coaching practice is is about taking people out of me versus you dynamics and recentering people in us versus problem.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I love that. I love that. And I think that's you know, part of um I do a lot of reading, Brene Brown's reading, and she talks about that too, even when giving someone feedback or problem solving. Let's put that problem in front of us, not you versus me. It's not you're the problem or I'm the problem. It's like let's define what the problem is and work on it more collaboratively in more of a partnering way. And I think that's a really awesome approach, a very helpful approach as well. Um, so is that going to be your next book, like writing it from the fear-based leader perspective and what they can do?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'm not sure that would sell very many copies. Uh but I think those four people, Kate. I I think that what I would love to write about next is how to be a strengths-based leader. Um because the strengths-based leadership is the opposite of fear-based leadership, where you say, um, how do you unlock everyone's strengths around you? You know, you unblock and tackle so that you know you get things out of your team's way and just let them add problems, right? And um, how do you be someone that leverages your own strengths and helps others around you reach their potential? Because if you can do that, everything else follows. Your company does well, your customers are happy, your employees are happy, and so on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for sure. And there's so much research about that already in place to say that is true. It works, it creates engagement, it creates motivation, it creates that internal drive and energy to perform at a higher level. So uh so have you gotten started on the book yet?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. I I have started working on that. And um what I'm what I'm paying attention to right now is the themes in my coaching practice. You know, what are my leaders struggling with? You know, how how can I help them with that? And and often that's what I end up writing in my newsletters is um, you know, things that help leaders fill us alone with their problems, but but gives them real-world applied things that they can do to make it better. Um, I think a lot of people feel like they tell people their problems and people listen, but they don't actually create solutions to fix it. And my specialty is really creative problem solving within hard constraints. Um, and so I love to help sign creative solutions and then also teach and translate information. Um, you know, having worked with Fortune 500 clients, how do I take their best practices and teach it to startups? Or, you know, having study significantly with trauma psychologists, how do I teach startups leaders not to be haunted by patterns from their past? And um, it's um never boring. Like I really am grateful this is what I get to do. Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I think your your curiosity about the human experience and how that translates into the work world and how people are affected by their history and their human experience and how that's showing up in the workplace is part of um your superpower from my perspective, which I really love and appreciate. But I and again, you're you come at it through a compassionate lens. Um, and I think that's really helpful as well. You're not you're not shaming people, you're trying to understand them. So that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely like I think that a lot of anger is actually fear underneath the anger.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, totally agree.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot of people who try to be big and scary are scared themselves. And and and so if you can keep that in mind, it it makes a difference. You know, I I often tell leaders in my practice, you know, I I will help support you to be set up for success and however you define success. But the way I define success is, you know, am I showing up every day and living my values? Um, um am I showing up every day and and do I like myself? And and what I tell my leaders is um, if you don't like yourself, that's the first order of business for us to work on. Because there's no way you're gonna like your employees or your family if you don't like yourself. Yeah. It really starts with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, that kind of reality check, I think, is um is really powerful. And to be vulnerable enough to talk about those things. I mean, values is one thing because I think we tend to, once we're able to identify them, they there's a lot of pride in values, like yes, this is what I want to represent, this is who I want to be. And then you look at now, do I like how I'm living and how I'm showing up? And am I am I really living in those values or not? Um, that's a whole different ball game in terms of vulnerability and that getting people to really understand that. So um I do a lot of values, inventory, and activities in leadership classes. Um, but how do you know if there's alignment with how people are operating? Right. And that's what you're really getting at.

SPEAKER_01:

I often do scoring exercises where we'll identify values and then score how well you're actually living them and then create create plans about how to deal with that. But often from a much more basic sense, um, I find myself having to work with leaders, helping them to build self-trust. Um, if you if you find leaders who don't trust the people around them, it's usually because they can't trust themselves. And so that often means that I'm working with them on saying, okay, what's five minutes of something you can do every day where you show up for yourself? You know, whether it's taking a walk or sending an appreciation email to someone, how do we get those reps in so that you start believing that other people are trustworthy because you are trustworthy, right? Um I think a lot of people just kind of scratch the surface there without really digging in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, that's so insightful. And yeah, those the small things that we can do each day to trust ourselves, that's a really interesting perspective, right? On how to shift that focus from other people, starting with us. Yeah, that's that's pretty powerful. I want to add that the um, the whole now rate yourself on on your values and how much you align to them. And do you think people can be really honest? With that?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, they know. They know when they feel tickles of guilt. Um, especially Midwesterners, we're working with Midwesterners, they absolutely know. They may not know how to fix it, but they're pretty aware. Um, and and what's more is like the people around them will often reflect it back to them very clearly. Um and so they'll remember that time where like an employee made an expression that they were really unhappy, or when their daughter yelled at them that something was unfair, or um, you know, things like that. And and so I think you'll find that self-awareness is often accessible, but sometimes people need a nudge to access it. Yeah, yeah. Open the door, go in, it's gonna be fine. I mean, it's like everything you see in that room. Sometimes people just need a safe container to do that. Um, you know, like I often tell my leaders, like, I will be at least one person in your world who has no vested interest in the outcome, and where you have a safe space to not know things or to fail or or to be unsure or to admit that you're doing something you don't like. Um because when leaders don't have that, it's much harder for them to be who they want to be.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Well, you're allowing them the vulnerability of not just exploring that, but managing it and and not being afraid of it, as you said. I think fear, I think fear, I agree. I think fear is such an incredible motivator or an incredible has such a big effect on how we're showing up, but we don't realize it. I remember going through this, and this was an emotional intelligence that uh experience um at the beginning of last year, and we were talking about specifically about the emotion of fear, and we were supposed to be documenting when we felt afraid. And I was like, and I even said in class, like, I haven't felt afraid in the last week. And the the instructor was like, seriously, like what did you do yesterday? I was talking about this strategic planning session I was doing that was really it was just a train wreck. It was um we had it ended up being a hybrid session and it wasn't supposed to be, it was supposed to be an in-person. There were all kinds of technical problems, and I look back on that day and I was like, I was afraid like the entire day. I didn't realize that that's how it was that it was showing up for me and how I reacted to that.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think it's you know, a lot of people don't feel like it's okay to admit that they're scared. Yeah, there's so much more permission to say, I'm mad, I've been wronged, or like that was a train wreck, that was that other person's fault. I hate them. Um, but but I find that when I have very strong reactions, like 80% of the time underneath I'm frightened about something. Maybe I'm scared I won't get my needs met, or I'm afraid it'll change or people will see me, or or a lot of things like that. And and sometimes people really need support in doing a perspective reset. Um I was actually talking to someone yesterday who who was going through some really scary things. Um, and they and and what we decided was we were going to change what frightened them. Um, you know, people talk about exposure therapy for OCD or phobias or things like that. Yes. Um, and the reality is that even things that are quite scary, when you spend enough time around them, um you can say, I know this, I know this type of insecurity. And I'm not going to let it frighten me anymore. Because here are all the different ways I can address it. Um and yeah, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Yes, yes. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, great perspective. So this has been such a fun conversation, and as you know, as people listening, they might realize, like, oh, this is happening to me, right? I am in a controlling environment or I'm in a fear-driven culture, uh, or maybe there's gonna be peeking into that a little bit more. Um, what what is one actionable shift that you think they can maybe believe or do that would help them um help them if they're in this kind of environment?

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. I think um if they are in an environment where other people are causing fear, I want them to take a really close look at that person. Do they do they seem happy? Do they have friends? Um, are they successful in the way you want to be successful? Um when you start actually looking behind the bluster and behind the posturing, often what you find is oh, they're not actually scary. Um, because I pity them. And and if you if you can pity them, that robs them a lot of a lot of their power.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's really interesting and very insightful. So what if what if, like you said on that podcast, that person realized, oh my gosh, maybe this is me. What would you advise then? Like what if someone's listening is like, holy crap, holy crap, I might be a fear-based leader, or maybe I'm I'm operating in this way. So, you know, again, subtly or or blatantly.

SPEAKER_01:

Certainly. Um, so first of all, you should try to find some support around it, whether that's a coach or a therapist or a trusted friend, um, someone where you can say, I'm doing these things and I don't like who I'm being when I do them. Um, so that you're not alone and trying to figure it out. And then there are a bunch of books that I would recommend. One of them I think would be most important is called From Surviving to Thriving. A lot of leaders who use fear to motivate are stuck in survival and stress states. Um, a big portion of fear-based leadership comes from fight responses and like flight, fight, feet, freeze, fawn. And so um, part of it is about learning how to regulate their nervous system and increase their distress tolerance. Um, because you might notice leaders like this seem very thin skinned. It's because they never developed a natural tolerance to distress.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. So um I is it Dan Siegel, Dr. Siegel. Oh, we talked about the window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it is. Um the book that I mentioned is by Pete Walker. But yes, the the the window of tolerance is is so important. And um, a lot of these leaders will not identify easily themselves as as having trauma responses, but typically that is where these things are coming from. And if if they don't have access to resources, I would recommend getting the the dbt workbook and and trying to work through that themselves.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, okay. Oh, thank you for giving. And of course, I think understanding the perspective through your own lens and and reading your book, The Unbreakable, um, again, or are following you. I have I feel like I've learned a lot about this in a very short period of time just following you. Stalking you. So thank you, Kate.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, please stalk away. I'm flattered that that you bother to take a read. So always my pleasure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and I appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast to share the research you're doing, what you're seeing in, you know, there there's for me, um, when we first talk, there there was a little bit of fear in me, like, no, well, how could we be heading in this direction? You know, as leaders and leadership styles. And but when you explore the reason why and what's shifting and what's shaping around us in society, and as you said, in businesses and in everybody's individual ecosystems, and not having the strategies to show up as our best self or realizing that we are um what you you give me hope by understanding, you know, what's creating this and where we can go from here, and the fact that you're helping people to show up with power.

SPEAKER_01:

In a way, this is the type of regression, um, but there is always hope. No matter how hard it seems, you know, we we will be able to come back from it. And then in the meantime, I would say like try to learn the best ways you can to protect yourself and keep yourself safe and find a good pocket and see there if you can.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go. I love that. And I will look forward to uh reading your next book. And I love that you're you're pivoting that direction too, to say what can we do that's different? Again, there's so many leadership theories out there and strategies. Um, I totally believe that strength-based leadership and understanding our own strengths and people around us is uh a very effective, um, empowering and satisfying way to it, it's joyful because when we know what our strengths are and what others are too, we're we're experiencing a lot more joy, even through the problems. And I love that philosophy.

SPEAKER_01:

So definitely. And in in the writing for that book, I'm including those kindergarten lessons that the fear-based leaders missed. You know, what does a good evolution like? How do you give feedback? Um, you know, what does it mean to build trust and so on?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, foundational practices on the playground. Yeah, I love that. That's awesome. Well, I am grateful for you, and I am grateful that you took the time to be with me this morning um to send me your work and all the things that you're exploring are are good for us as human beings, not just leaders. So I I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you too, Cindy. You have a very um warm and cheerful presence, and that's always a nice thing early in the morning. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's it for today's episode. I hope you're leaving with a clear understanding of fear-based leadership and more importantly, the confidence to lead with courage, compassion, and self-awareness. Remember, you have more agency, influence, and strength than you often give yourself credit for. Thank you so much for spending time with me. I truly appreciate every one of you who listen, reflect, and choose to grow as a leader. And before you go, if this episode sparked something for you, share it with one person who could use this message today. Until next time, lead with purpose, lead with heart, and keep showing up as your best self.