Intentional Leaders Podcast with Cyndi Wentland

Lead with Courage and Inclusivity with Olivia Stewart

• Cyndi

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What if the most powerful tool for business success isn't a new technology or strategy, but simply creating environments where people can bring their whole selves to work? In this compelling conversation, Olivia Stewart reveals how inclusive leadership directly impacts employee engagement, innovation, and organizational performance.

Stewart brings a unique psychological perspective to workplace dynamics, having witnessed the evolution of employee engagement metrics since the early 1990s. She challenges leaders to see diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging not as separate initiatives but as fundamental leadership responsibilities. "This is not something you're doing in addition to your job," she explains. "This is your job."

Using a brilliant orchestra conductor metaphor, Stewart illustrates how leaders harmonize diverse talents without playing any instruments themselves. The conductor merely "waves a stick around," yet transforms individual excellence into collective brilliance through direction and clear communication. Similarly, inclusive leaders create environments where innovation naturally emerges from diverse perspectives.

Most provocatively, Stewart identifies the hidden cost of non-inclusive workplaces: cognitive drain. When employees spend approximately 10% of their mental capacity hiding aspects of their identity or feeling unsafe to speak up, that's brain power not devoted to solving problems or driving results. "If I'm using my brain space that way, I'm not giving it to the cause," she notes.

Through concrete examples and practical advice, Stewart outlines key inclusive behaviors: active listening that suspends judgment, clear communication that considers diverse learning styles, and consistent accountability that reinforces expectations. These behaviors require intention, practice, and sometimes uncomfortable conversations, but they directly enhance decision-making quality and team performance.

Ready to transform your leadership impact? Subscribe now and discover how small shifts in leadership behavior can dramatically improve your team's engagement, innovation, and results.

Contact Olivia Stewart here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivia-williams-stewart-000225/

Cyndi Wentland: www.intentionaleaders.com

Try the Intentional Problem Solving Course for FREE: https://www.intentionaleaders.com/intentional-problem-solving-leaders-course

I'd love to hear from you! Send a text message.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to another episode of the Intentional Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, cindy Wetland, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Olivia Stewart. She's a dynamic voice in the world of employee engagement, leadership and development and also inclusive workplace strategy. Now I know DEI and BE initiatives are coming under scrutiny in our world and I think what's important to recognize about this topic is each of those elements of culture matter, and if we blob them all together and just say D E I and B, or even D E I, we have a certain perception of what that means, and I think sometimes there's misperceptions of what that means.

Speaker 1:

Olivia does a masterful job of helping us to recognize that diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging tie directly to employee engagement and motivation. Now, do you want to work in an organization and do you want to be a leader that focuses on employee engagement and motivation? Do you want to be a leader that focuses on employee engagement and motivation? I know you do. So Olivia is going to share a little bit about her perspective, her thoughts, her insights on this very important topic, and I know that you're going to realize the connections and the relevance of this, no matter what kind of scrutiny our world is looking at with this particular topic and she has so much experience to share. I know that you're going to value and appreciate her perspective and insights. Let's go Welcome and thank you for taking time out of your schedule, olivia, to be on our podcast this morning.

Speaker 1:

I'm so excited to have you on our podcast this morning. I'm so excited to have you. Well, I introduced you in terms of your development, the work that you've done in creating culture, and I'm so excited to explore those things with you today because you and I have known each other more on the personal side over the years and now I get to find out what really fuels your energy, and I am so excited about that. I am as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So, olivia, when you think about you know your focus is a lot on employee engagement and development and you think when you talk about that, you're very passionate about it. So what sparked the interest in employee development and employee engagement for you over the years?

Speaker 2:

So you know, I think, if you go way, way, way back, when I made the decision to go into HR, I thought it was a place where I would have the opportunity to impact a lot of people, as opposed to being just a manager and having my own team. So you know, being able to have that impact on the organization broadly was, you know, way, way, way back when, one of the things that really got me excited and got me into HR. But when you think about engagement specifically, I want to say that I was at the right place at the right time, you know, in terms of how the field of engagement was developing alongside of as I was developing in my career. So you know, the concept or the psychological framework around engagement really kind of came out in the early 90s when I was in college and then started gaining steam as the 90s progressed.

Speaker 2:

And then you start getting into the 2000s where companies are switching to these global surveys the Tower Watsons of the world and Gallup are doing these broad surveys just as I'm entering the workforce and I was lucky enough to be able to work with a company who was doing this engagement work. It wasn't quite engagement at that time, it was still sort of on the satisfaction side of the spectrum. But you know my background in psychology, coupled with my choice in career. You know this coming together of how do you get people involved and contributing and making sure that businesses are achieving their goals, coupled with this idea of you know the psychological needs of people, it all sort of rang true to me in terms of you know what do people need, what you know if you, if you think about sort of Maslow's hierarchy, right.

Speaker 2:

You know, yeah, it's okay to be fed and clothed, but you need more in that, and so that's what I got really excited about. And you know, how do managers achieve their goals? It's not through themselves, it's through people. So how do we help them do those kinds of things is where I got really excited about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it and isn't it? It's kind of serendipity, isn't it, when you have a personal passion about something and then other organizations are starting to talk about that and measure it. And you and I have kind of talked about, I think, what anchors your experience from my perspective is that all the things you do wrap around culture development and, as you said, it's not just you and a team, it's you creating space for everyone in the culture to be more connected to their job, and I think that's having that connection and helping people you know realize how they can impact that on a regular basis.

Speaker 2:

because you know, sitting in HR or sitting outside of the business, you don't have that interaction with people every day and so, even if my mind is there, how do I push that out to the organization? You know, where it becomes? The everyday behaviors and the everyday decisions that people make, which is really sort of the definition of a company culture, is how people act and respond every day.

Speaker 1:

You bet, you bet, and I think it is so relevant today, especially with all of the challenges and the economy in the country and all of that. I've done a lot of reading about leaders who are the most successful are focused on the cultural development, but I think that's a it's a squishy. It's a squishy concept. As you said, there's a lot of components to how in the world do I shift the culture and even describing what it is. You know how do you describe a culture and what it feels like. So I think those are all really cool topics.

Speaker 2:

You know it was, it was early on in my career, I think it was at some seminar and what they did is they brought in members of an orchestra and they all had their instruments and they were all playing and they all played a piece and it was fine. And then they brought in the conductor and then the conductor led that orchestra and it was so much better.

Speaker 2:

And this idea of the leader is standing around waving a stick. They're not doing anything with the impact that it had on the group. I mean, you could you know it's sort of a silly example, but you could you could hear the difference because of the direction and the communication and all of that stuff that came up from the leadership. So it's very squishy, right Like waving a stick around. What is that doing? Well, it's doing something because the performance is there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, I love it. I think that's a great. It's a great metaphor for leadership and culture. Right Is how is everybody really literally playing together?

Speaker 2:

That's a great one, Because everyone's an expert in their own instrument or even in their own part of the orchestra, and they know what they're doing and all of those kinds of things. But how do you bring all of those elements together? You know that sort of ethereal element of leadership that is hard to pin down but easy to see.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and to hear I love that. Well, one of the things that I really wanted to focus in is your connection with DEI programs and there's so much scrutiny right now. There's so much scrutiny right now and you and I have been doing some discussion about how this is still such an important, relevant topic and thinking about inclusion, but also without alienating people who there's. There's, I think, myths and misperceptions about what DEI is and when you think about, or how do you think about companies still being able to focus on those important issues with the scrutiny that's going on right now in the business environment.

Speaker 2:

You know, I mean, I think there are a lot of preconceived notions about what this means and how decisions are made around it.

Speaker 2:

You know, if you go way, way, way back when you talk about affirmative action planning and we've got to hit this quota and I'm just filling the queue with bodies, that might have been what was way back when, but that's not what it is today, right, this is not about hiring people to meet a quota or hiring people to a demographic. It is really about how do you attract that best talent to your organization, and that best talent is going to look and be and feel different than maybe what you had before. So how are you able to bring that into the organization? And if you've got the best talent, how do you harness it and how do you make sure that that talent kind of comes to fruition? Right, and the inclusion piece of it is really about creating that environment or elements in the culture where, if I've got a different point of view, I feel safe enough to speak up and I feel empowered to say, hey, I disagree with everybody on this phone call and here's why. And if you don't have that, that those varying perspectives you really kind of get into. We're going to do the things the way we've always done them. We're all going to, you know, maybe kowtow to the leader or the strongest personality in the room, and those are suboptimal actions. You're not going to get the best decisions out of them. So when you focus on what I feel is the true purpose of diversity, equity, inclusion, it really is about getting that best talent and harnessing that power and making it work for your organization.

Speaker 2:

And so when you look at the issues or concerns that shareholders might bring up, they think, oh, this is not necessary, we're wasting money on it, we're allocating resources to something that has no output. You know, I think that that is a legitimate concern and, as an organization, to think about inclusion, it includes all right. So those complaints or those issues or those concerns, and get to what's really important to this group and how have I not served their needs? Or how have I served their needs. And then go back to the data. Right, the data? You know the data doesn't lie right. So when you look at performance on engagement surveys or performance in the marketplace, or the achievement of strategies and results, how does that align with what you're doing from a diversity, equity and inclusion standpoint. So you've got to address those concerns because these are important people, they are stakeholders in your organization. But you also have to have the data to kind of back that up and, just like any other business decision, if we're going to invest $5 million in this plant, well, what is that really going to cost us? How long is it going to take to get online? When are we going to be productive? When is it going to be profitable? You've got to answer all of those questions for your stakeholders. You've got to do that with anything you're spending money on as an organization, and so you've got to also take back, take that step back and measure and look at those kinds of things. So I think that it's important to address those concerns and not, you know, I think, brush it off as, oh, you know, you're just that this is the flavor of the day and this is what people are all riled up about it, or you're anti-woke, or whatever the case may be. You've got to get down to what is the actual issue, what is the actual concern, and are you addressing it or not? I think that that's really important. But I think inside the company, you know, instead of looking out inside the company.

Speaker 2:

Going back to what she said, it's about culture.

Speaker 2:

What is your culture and truth that you want to be as an organization, and if you've got the mission, values, vision statement, what does it take to achieve that? What does it take to get to that? And you know, if you want to drive innovation, guess what? You need new perspectives. And if you've got new perspectives, how are you going to keep them? And you know, kind of it kind of cascades from there. But if you're, if you don't want to package it as DEI, then it's about achieving our mission, vision and values. And you know, when I think about the values that I've seen across organizations, right, you know, drive innovation, be customer focused, all of those kinds of things. You know you can't be customer focused unless you have that empathy and understanding of who your customer is and where they're coming from, and that then sort of rolls right into those inclusive behaviors that are so important if you want to achieve those kinds of things of so important if you want to, if you want to achieve those kinds of things, yeah, yeah, and that's a.

Speaker 1:

It's an excellent insight too, when you connect culture to innovation, and innovation can't happen without inclusiveness. Inclusive behaviors Are people free to, as you said, challenge the status quo? Are they free to bring things up? Are they free to speak the truth or what they see? And I think those issues are inclusive and I'm going to share in the show notes. You wrote a whole article about this, which I loved, because you really connect inclusive leadership behaviors and saying you know again, if we, if you, if you kind of look at mission, vision, values that's one thing they were bringing those to life and we all want to participate in bringing those to life. So what do you think are some of the most impactful inclusive leadership behaviors? How do people do that? Because I think that's that's part of it too, is there's a little bit of there's squishiness to that? So how would you define those?

Speaker 2:

So I think that's you know, and one of my rallying cries around DEI is that this is not something you're doing in addition to your job. This is your job, right, as a leader. These are the things that you should be doing, and if you're not, we've got to have a conversation about that, but you shouldn't be thinking about it as on top of or something else. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So, when you talk about those behaviors, if you talk about leadership behaviors that are important from an inclusive standpoint, I think the other person and it's not just the words, it's all the non-verbals, it's all of the context around what they're saying, what they're not saying and in order to actively listen, you need to suspend your own perspectives and biases and all the things you think. You've got to suspend all of that. And so when I talk about mitigating your biases, this is what I mean in terms of it's not about what I think, it's not about how I feel about it, where it comes from, I don't know, but it's not about that, but it's about let me invest in the time and the brain space to listen to the person that is speaking right now, so that I can hear what their perspective is and infer, you know, what their intent is. I think, oh gosh, I don't remember where I heard this, but you know, underneath complaint is compliance, where I heard this, but you know, underneath complaint is compliance.

Speaker 2:

People are speaking up and saying things that they think are wrong, because they are trying to make sure that the outcome is as good as it can be, and so you know, to suspend that. Oh, here comes Sally complaining about everything. Again, it's what does Sally have to say that's really relevant and important and that I'm not seeing? And is that important enough for me to address in a different way? And so the active listening piece. Again, it's a leadership behavior, but it embodies a lot of the principles of inclusion.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's a. It's a really excellent insight. And there's when I, when I teach leadership behavior, I always like talk about listening and it's so it's hard to suspend judgment, as you said, but it's also hard just to be fully present. You think about the research on mindfulness? Is we're really only physically or mentally present 50 percent of the time? We're off into what's coming next.

Speaker 1:

I'm an achiever here. I know it's like oh so, my ability even to be here and hold that space for people is one thing, but then, as you said, suspending the judgment about what you're saying and how you're saying it or who you are like Sally, she's's always a complainer, or Fred, he's always problem right, but what is at the core, as you said, about what they're really getting at and why are they bringing that to the table?

Speaker 2:

And so when you think about mitigating biases, a lot of it is including others to sort of witness and hear and experience the same things and then talk about how those different points of view come into play. Because, you know, the work on biases and unconscious biases is not about changing who you are, but it's about recognizing like hey, I tend to think this way about something and so let me intentionally go find somebody who doesn't do that Work through the question or the issue or the proposal, in a way that we are respectfully challenging each other but really digging out from those biases that may cloud our ability to really be present and to hear what somebody else is saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and Olivia, I think that's you know what you're. What you're talking about is is it's about exploring your own mindset, like do you know that you're even doing that? That's job. One like self-awareness and, again, statistics, and self-awareness is that we're not very self-aware. We think we're more than we are. Also, statistics are that people think they're more open-minded than they really are. There's all these things working against leaders to be inclusive, because there's so many things that, as you said, we're trying to focus on results, trying to get work done much less. How are we going about that? And that listening piece just couldn't be more important, as you said Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

So when you think about inclusivity you mentioned listening, suspending judgment, kind of understanding biases Anything else that jumps out at you that you think leaders can really focus on to to set the stage for not just inclusivity but innovation commitment goals?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, I think right after listening is actually clear communication. Right, you know, and I say this a hundred times Right, you got to set the expectations. You know, if you believe that people are smart and capable and properly motivated, if you tell them where you want them to go, they'll figure it out, they'll get there right. But you got to do that. You got to set those expectations in terms of what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. You've got to set those expectations around. What results do I need to see from X, y or Z? And so you know whether it's. You know, in this meeting we're going to brainstorm, and that means no judgment.

Speaker 2:

Yes, the accountability piece of it, I think, is so important if you are coming from a place of. I believe in the people that are in this work group with me. I know they want to do what's best for the organization, and if I help set them on the path, they'll take it from there and they'll do it with more power than I could ever do it with, or they'll do it with more expertise than I ever could. And so that that clarity around the communication. The hitch and the giddy up, though, is that people think they clearly communicate when you know, maybe they say something, but you know they don't necessarily get their intention through, and so the hardest part about that is I will speak in the way that makes sense to me, but we need leaders that can speak in the way that makes sense to the people that they're speaking to, and that's different and that's differences and that's being tuned to. How do I include everyone in this journey that I want them to take?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you, you cut out a little bit, and I think, and I, but I wanted to go back to something that I think you said is number one. You're kind of talking about the importance of expectations, but I think you've said also holding people accountable to those expectations. Correct, correct, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So when you think about, when you think about culture and you think about setting expectations and you think about the environment that a leader is trying to create within their organization, you know saying that this is a brainstorming activity and I don't want any judgment.

Speaker 2:

The minute somebody comes in with a judgment and says, well, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If you don't curb that in that moment, in that instance, in front of everyone in the room, guess what? It's okay. It's okay, even though you said you didn't want me to, I let you do it, hold you accountable to those expectations and say you know, hey, we're going to take time to decipher the pros and cons of all of these ideas. But, as I said before, I don't want judgment in here. I want the creativity to flow and so that accountability piece of you know, whether it's a meeting or it's meeting the values of the organization or the cultural, if you don't cuff it, if you don't catch it in the moment and correct it, then it's okay. It's okay for me not to do what you said and that's hard right. People don't like conflict, people don't like, you know, those kinds of things. It's important to get what it is that you need from the organization.

Speaker 1:

Yeah for sure. And I think what's what's so important about what you just said is it is awkward and uncomfortable. So I might say to everybody we're all gonna brainstorm, we're gonna it's a judgment free zone, but then I have to actually do that. I have to actually say it in the moment, like hey, and that's. It's awkward for people and we don't like awkwardness, right, we don't like in the moment to have to say those things. But that's the hard part about you know, setting one, one about setting expectations, but two about how you want people to treat one another in terms of the communication, in terms of the openness, and I think all those things are super important.

Speaker 1:

But, it's also about consistency, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Right, From meeting to meeting you have the same expectations you hold people. So maybe you don't catch it in the moment the first time, but you address it right afterwards and then over time people will see that you mean it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and that takes a lot of courage to be able to do, and stamina and determination, all those hard things, all those hard words. It doesn't have to be me or her either, yeah, well, and so again, I just want to reinforce some of the things you talked about, because you know you made an important point that we got to talk a little bit about DEI and the perceptions about that and the myths about that, and what you're saying is that it's not something people are doing separate, but the expectations of leaders it is. It's about how you're leading, not doing something. Additionally. So you mentioned being a great listener, suspending judgment, being clear on biases, really good with communication, not just the way I communicate, but what do you need from me? And then clear expectations and accountability. Did I miss anything? That's a great list.

Speaker 2:

I think that's pretty thorough.

Speaker 1:

Your words, I loved it.

Speaker 2:

Clearly it was brilliant.

Speaker 1:

It was obviously brilliant. So when you think about you know we've you and I have talked about what's going on in the world and values. Values conflict with organizational pressures and societal pressures. So what do you? If you had to give people advice about how to balance that right now, I guess what advice would you give to leaders? What advice do you give yourself to keep that mission alive? Because, as you said, culture and engagement and all of that is around inclusivity. So what advice would you give?

Speaker 2:

around inclusivity. So what advice would you give? So, I mean, I think the first thing that I would say we talked about self-reflection, right is to think about really what is my role as a leader in the organization. And you know, we talked about setting that vision, setting the strategies, but it's also about inspiring and motivating people to want to dive headfirst into that vision and that strategy. Right, and if people, you know, if resources are needed from a financial standpoint is one thing, but also from a development standpoint, you've got to develop the skills and capabilities of people in the organization to execute against those strategies. You know, as a leader, driving that innovation, or adapting to change, or continuously improving, all of those ideas are sort of critical to how do we move forward as an organization and, at the end of the day, it's about delivering results, right? So when you think about leadership in that terms and you say that's what I'm signing up for, that's what I want to do, because that's what leadership is, yeah, when you come to that sort of reflective moment of saying, yep, that's what I, what I signed up for, then you've got to think about okay, so what does it mean to really? You know, give that clarity to, to to enable others and to deliver those results, and what are the behavioral changes that I need to demonstrate or embody that, that that are going to bring those things about? And that's sort of where the inclusive behaviors come in.

Speaker 2:

But I think it's also a matter of people recognizing, you know, oh, maybe my values don't align with this organization and there's a tough conversation to have there, you know, because you know people want to be employed, people like to live indoors and eat every day and those kinds of things, and so you might have some reservations around that.

Speaker 2:

But you know the things that are most important to you. You know, is this a fight worth having in my organization? Can I be a catalyst for the kind of change that I think is important? Or, you know, maybe that's not who I am, maybe I'm not the leader of the charge, and maybe it would be better for me to find the kind of organization that is more aligned with what I want to do. And that's a very personal decision. There's a lot of clout and ego and effort that go into trying to be a change agent, but if this is at the core of what you believe and what you think is going to lead the organization forward successfully, then maybe you're ready to sign up for that fight, but you're going into it with eyes wide open.

Speaker 1:

If you're like me, you probably are faced with a bazillion problems a day. When we think about the opportunity to focus on the most strategic problems, this takes some sharp thinking and quick thinking. What's interesting about this whole topic of problem solving is I have been training leaders and managers on problem solving for a long time more years than I have to admit and what I know is most leaders and managers believe they are good problem solvers. Then I introduce some best practices and pitfalls of problem solving and after those concepts are introduced, leaders think oh my gosh, I could do this better, differently, with higher quality, and I can enable my team to do this as well. I can coach people. I can coach my people to be more high quality in their critical thinking and their problem solving, maybe even reducing some drama along the way. I want this for you. So this is a great offer and an opportunity for you to dive into and explore my new problem-solving course and get the first lesson free. It will give you a chance to sign in and preview lesson one in the problem solving course.

Speaker 1:

As I said, this is a topic that most of us think we're pretty good at. However, statistics on self-awareness say that 95% of us think we're self-aware and only 10% are. Now, I'm not saying you are not a good problem solver or that you're not self-aware, but don't you want a reality check to make sure you are? This will save you time, energy and a whole bunch of stress and it will lead to empowering your team in a very strategic, thoughtful and engaging way. And I think both you and I have gone through some of those pivotal moments in organizations in our careers.

Speaker 1:

I know you have and I know I have, but it's and I think you know that is so important. I think sometimes we get into a job and we keep going because we think that's what we're supposed to do, and we fight the good fight and then we get exhausted and then we can get complacent and then we get like get burnt and people get burnt out, because the changes required it isn't that that requires a lot of endurance, a lot of stamina, a lot of courage and, as you said, if those values are misaligned, that adds an extra layer of angst. And so I think understanding that, but even I don't even know if some people recognize they're at that kind of crossroads Like, oh my gosh, you know our values aren't aligned or my values aren't aligned and do I have the courage to either, as you said, sign up and be reflective enough to change it, or is this not?

Speaker 1:

a good fit for me.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right, and you know it is. It's hard, right, people like the stability and the consistency and the devil, you know, perhaps. But when you, when you think about what I think about because, again, psych geek when you think about that hierarchy of needs where I want to feel proud of what I'm doing and be excited about it and feel like I'm contributing to something big, like if that's missing for you, I think that that seeps into every element of your life. Right, you don't leave that stuff at the door when you leave the office. Right, it leaches into your private life, it leaches into your psychological state of being. It doesn't leave you. And is it worth it? Right, is it worth it? And sometimes it's just not. And so what is getting into personal values? What is most important to you? What do you find to you? Know, complete your soul. You've got to go for those kinds of things sometimes and you know, have a long term plan for it. Maybe you can't quit tomorrow. Find the transition place.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm getting a lot of freezing on your, on your screen, just so you know as you're and that's we're, we're. I can hear you, that's. I don't want to miss anything that you're saying. So that's. The good news is, you stay frozen a bit, but I can still hear your voice. So that's good, because I love, I love what you're saying so much. And when you think about that for you and you you are in a period right now where you're really reflecting on where you want to go and the values that you have and when you think about that intentionality for you, what, what do you feel like is important to you right now in how you want to contribute or the kind of culture that you want to either be in and the role that you want to play? Because you're going through all of those things right now, what does that look like for you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, For sure. You know I think that you know what you said about. You get into a job and you just keep grinding and keep grinding and keep doing what's. You know what's in front of you, you know we all fall victim to that and you know there are there are activities and things that I've done where I feel like gosh, I could do this in my sleep. And it's not that I'm not willing to do it, it's not that I don't think I'm capable of doing it, but what it makes me sit back and go is, or think about is, what am I getting out of this? How am I growing and developing? And when you come to the point where you think you're not like you could do this with the one hand tied behind your back, like where's the fun in that, where's the challenge in that? Where's the growth? And of course, you know organizations are different and different cultures and you've got to fit in. But like it's not that different when you get down to sort of the core philosophy of some of these activities.

Speaker 2:

And so for me, having an impact when I said this at the beginning, right, I wanted to have a big impact on the organization and lots of people and you know, building systems and tools and training, all was around building an infrastructure for organizations. That's a piece of it. It moves the needle, but it doesn't move it as far as I think it should. And so when I take that step back and think how, how more can I contribute? You know, I think it really has shifted from the ideas about infrastructure to culture. And how do you get culture? You, you really start at the top. You really start at the top right and know what is important to your leaders and what the organization should and could be doing differently to make it a culture where all of that infrastructure makes sense.

Speaker 2:

And so having the impact on leaders and leadership development has become a bigger priority for me. And having the space and organization that understands that. You know it's not about just having a great CEO. You've got to have a whole organization of leaders at different levels. And what does that mean and what does that look like and how do you make that leap? You know I've done many sessions about. You know, making the change from an individual contributor to a manager, like that's a whole different skill set, that's a whole different mindset, and helping people make that shift is what gets me excited and how do you teach in those skills and and how do you give them the tools to reflect? And I think one of the biggest challenges for leaders is taking that time to reflect and saying is this working? What do I need to do differently? Those kinds of things. So creating the space in which leaders can develop those capabilities is what you know I'm trying to shift my focus to right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that Well, and I love because it's, you know, you have that background in psychology and how people you know tick, and so there's part of it is the culture. You're talking about infrastructure, like what are systems and processes to get things done. There's that. But then there's what are all the nuances of the people and the psychology and the mindset and, as you said, that doesn't change or shift without the reflection period, and I think sometimes people get so busy Again we don't take the time to reflect in that way of how we're showing up what we're doing. You mentioned so many of the things around listening and suspending judgment and all those things. Those things don't arrive on our doorstep and all those things, those things don't arrive on our doorstep.

Speaker 2:

They come with intentionality. Yep, you got to dig for them and you know when I think about you know what does that look like in real time. You know having conversations with your employees about. You know I use this strategy a lot of having the stay interview, right. You know we all do exit interviews like why are you leaving us? But instead of that, what is going to make stay interview right? You know we all do exit interviews like why are you leaving us, but instead of that, what is going to make you stay Right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's where that active listening comes in. That that point about reflection, that is encouraging others to reflect and that behavior. But I think it will also end up showing you that, gosh, people have different motivations and different needs, and I approach this as everyone's motivated by pay or everyone's motivated by the fear of losing their job to so many. What's truly important up the hierarchy for so many people? Um, and I think that that's what we as, as leaders, need to um again, spend time, like I and I've said this before right, having the performance management system, for example, is great, having compliance to it is great, but is it really doing what you meant it to do Like great. 97% of the forms are filled, but is performance improving so?

Speaker 2:

taking that the infrastructure is important. But then taking that next step up and saying are we getting what we're supposed to be getting? I think is how you start refocusing that culture and that approach and those behaviors in a way that is aligned with what the business needs.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, have I gone, wonky on you.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah Well, and I just had a conversation with a leader of an organization recently and they, you know, invested a lot in and they always have in employee training. But he said this year we're going to pull back a little bit deliberately because we want to see people doing it, not just continuing to invest in kind of remember this, remember this, remember this. And he said we want to actually pay attention very rigorously to behaviors in action. Knowledge applied, you know, are people doing the things you know we've given them skills and tools? Are they doing it? But that even you know who's paying attention to that, and I think it's cool that, again, part of your background is hey, I can pay attention to it because you know what it looks like and some people don't. And I think that's a really sweet spot for you is like you know the behaviors, you know the, the cultural dimensions that are going to contribute or detract from the success in that way. And I think that's a special gift, that you have special skill set, for sure.

Speaker 2:

I, I, you know, I think that you know, of course I'm in the training field and of course I think it's important and all of those things, but I always think back to you know this, this principle of 70, 20, 10 of development right, and only 10% of your activities should be training, should be formal learning, right, you need to go do it, because A if you're doing it, then you're practicing the skill and you're getting good at it and and people can see you doing it and there are observable behaviors that when you, when you teach what people want to look for, then they know how to.

Speaker 2:

I'm going on a tangent, but I was at an organization we built sort of a cultural model, and I had a manager and it's still a moment of pride where he said you have articulated what is our gut feel and you know, giving people the words and that power and that vocabulary is so important to the ability to observe and say, yeah, that behavior is aligned or not aligned to what we said we wanted. And so putting the emphasis on how do we see it in action is so much more important than the training. But you're not going to get there without the training.

Speaker 1:

Of course not. We've dedicated our lives to that, to that mission. We're going to make that 10% as good as we can. Oh, olivia, so when you think about again, we've talked a little bit about your career but when you think about you know obviously you, you and I are very aligned with intention and obviously naming my company that because I think purpose and intention is important and you've mentioned that. So what do you if you had to boil down some of your intentional choices in your career to to get you where you are today in terms of your skill set, your, you know your, what fills your bucket and what are some of the things that have jumped out to you that have been the most meaningful choices for you?

Speaker 2:

Right, I think going back to early in my career. I started off in organization development, right, building those structures, this is our competency model, blah, blah, blah, all of those kinds of things. And at some point I realized that HR is my client group, the business partner is my client group, but I've never done what they do, and so I made the intentional choice to switch out of being a specialist within HR to being a generalist within the HR, and eyes wide like it is. It's illuminating to know what it is to sit across the desk from a manager and and and walk them through a process and where is their pushback and why do they think this is stupid? Where, you know, my specialist hat was, of course, this is the answer to everything. Everyone should just see that they don't, as opposed to sitting across the desk and the manager's like, well, this is just a waste of time and I should be like, how do you address those issues and concerns and hear what sort of the ultimate customer is saying and incorporate that back into the specialty field. So, having that empathy, you know, I think that again, this is a little story, but I worked as a business partner somewhere where I was working with the company that was acquired and everything was changing.

Speaker 2:

For them. Everyone was upset about the changes and I had this group of employees that come to me like weekly and say, well, what's going on with our vacation policy? And say, well, what's going on with our vacation policy? And for me I'm like, why do you care? Like I could not, from my perspective, figure out why this was so important to them. But what I realized is that it's important to them and if I don't address this and I don't come up with an answer, guess what? They're spending 5% of their either talking to me or talking about it, talking to each other and about something that has no impact on productivity, and so addressing that concern, while I personally thought, like you know, you're only worrying about this if you leave the organization.

Speaker 2:

But for them, you know, getting that out of their mind and giving their brain that much stick back to dedicate to the work that they were supposed to be doing. You know that's something that I carry with me all the time, because if your brain is elsewhere, you can't be fulfilling the mission of your. And I feel the same way about inclusion, where, if I spend my brain space hiding who I really am, if I say if I were gay in an organization and I was spending 10 percent of my brain power hiding that, or if, you know, with person of color. Yes, how do I speak and what terminology do I use? If I'm using my brain space that way, I'm not giving it to the cause, and so alleviating that brain space so that people can focus on the work and the business is so important, and so that's why I see it, you know, kind of connecting sort of full circle, from whether it's somebody complaining about their vacation or somebody feeling like I can't speak up in this meeting because I'm the only female engineer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah it's the same.

Speaker 1:

It's the same issue, same concern, because, as the company is investing in that person, they're not getting their full payback you're hitting on something so, so important to culture, to inclusivity, to feeling purposeful and engaged in our work is that we have to be authentic. And if I can't be my authentic self, if I have to hide pieces or parts of myself, if I can't talk about certain things that I feel or who I really am at my core because I don't feel safe enough to do that, what a huge energy drain and a distraction to our ability to fully participate and fully perform at our best as our best self. And that is so true. I think about that a lot with with all kinds of issues that are taking up people's brain space when they don't feel those things that you mentioned. So being able to orchestrate that where everyone can contribute and feel good about what they're bringing to the table, is important. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, olivia, and I appreciate the article you wrote, and I'm you sharing your thoughts, olivia, because they and I appreciate the article you wrote, and I'm excited to share that with people Because I think, as, as you think about culture development, so many leaders, I think, don't know how to do what you're saying and again think of it as something separate, like culture development that's over here. Now we got to do all this stuff. No, it's really being that orchestra. Um, I love the orchestra analogy. Is it an analogy or a metaphor? I can never, I never, know the difference.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a metaphor okay, english is I don't even know what it is, but, um, that whole concept of everyone's contributing, everybody's playing their part, and that there's leadership at all levels that are doing that and knowing the importance of it, and that it makes a difference to the symphony, to how we're playing the music.

Speaker 2:

And I think the idea of leadership at all levels is so important because your executive suite touches what percentage of the workforce on a daily basis. Yeah, it's your first line managers. It's that next level of management that impacts people every day and if your thoughts and your culture and your intent is not going all the way down the organization, you're not going to get to where you want to go.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Anything else that you want to share, based on your journey, based on kind of the cultural development that is what you are doing, how you're contributing, anything else you want to share? Just the general question.

Speaker 2:

Gosh, that's so big and I'm not really sure what I think about that. But you know, I think that I'm not really sure what I think about that, but you know, I think that you know, one of the points of pride for me is being able to take that culture and break it down into behavior so that people again have words to go with that gut feeling and know what it is and what feels good and why does that feel good. Helping them put that vocabulary and those behaviors in a context that they can go okay. Yeah, that's what I thought it meant, but now that's what it means.

Speaker 2:

I think that that is so important for professionals, whether they're in HR or just a leadership in general, is these are the behaviors that I want to see. When I see them, I praise you. When I don't see them, I give you the opportunity to, to give you some coaching and feedback to let you correct it. And you know, for the disciplinary action of doing yeah, but really to, to, to infuse that at all levels is is so critical and you know we get caught up in the bits and the bytes and the you know producing the widgets and those kinds of things that you know kind of lose sight of what really is the role of leadership and how are you going to make all of those things happen without having to physically jump on the line and do the work yourself?

Speaker 1:

Right, absolutely. See, I asked you a very big, broad question and you answered it very eloquently my poorly worded question, but you did great. But I think what I just love about you, olivia, and I appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast today, because I think you have so many great insights on inclusive leadership about. You know the evolving workplace and even how people are thinking about inclusiveness over the years, you know, and diversity and all of that. But what you're really also saying is align your values, align leadership and build culture, and do that by being present and purposeful and being willing to reflect and shift and change and grow, and those are all doable for all of us, right? So I think what you're saying is, yes, it is planful and it's strategic, but it's not rocket science, thankfully.

Speaker 2:

It reminds me of a leadership book I saw. This is a long time ago. This probably won't make the cut, but the name of the book was Don't Be an Asshole. It's not rocket science. Be a good person. And it was like yeah.

Speaker 1:

Don't do that. Oh, I love it. It's a good summary statement. Don't be an asshole.

Speaker 2:

All right.

Speaker 1:

Well. Again, Olivia, I want to thank you for taking the time this morning and also for your thoughts and, as I mentioned, I will put your article in the show notes so we can share some of your ideas, and also connecting that engagement with inclusion and cultural development all those good things and then also your link to your LinkedIn profile so people can connect with you. I'm happy to field any questions or let people share their thoughts.

Speaker 2:

I would love to hear it.

Speaker 1:

Something I didn't share about your leadership and this is a life thing is you have an amazing ability to be not just creative as a leader, but creative as a human being, and you've been friends with my sister for years and years and you are known for your crafting oh, really, you have, but you are known for all your creativity as a human being because I think those are things that you absolutely bring into your career as well. But that creativity, the innovation, you represent that just in your life so much and honor all the things that you bring to the table in your real world.

Speaker 2:

No, it is. It's an important part of who I am and I do see the parallels between you know sort of that creativity at home and how do I take nothing and make it into something, and translating that into the workplace to say, okay, this is a mess, but we can make it better. Say, okay, this is a mess, but we can make it better, and having the tools and the thoughts to do that, it's fun for me it really is fun for me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that energy and that fun and that joy definitely shines through. So I admire that more than you know. Thank you so much for your time today, olivia. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, Cindy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you bet. Thank you so much for joining us for this powerful conversation with Olivia Stewart. I think her insights on inclusive leadership are important to remember in today's world. As we scrutinize all kinds of initiatives that organizations are either leading towards or leading away from, and when we recognize that diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging all lead us to employee engagement, I think it is worth a pause to consider the implications and the ramifications of the choices we're making strategically, but also individually. So, as you think about this very important topic this week, think about the intentional choices you are making to lead with courage and inclusivity. And if you enjoyed this podcast episode or any of our episodes, please be sure to share it with a colleague. And also don't forget to subscribe, rate and review this podcast that helps us to support and provide meaningful conversations like this to leaders everywhere. Until next time, keep leading with intention.